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How much blackout do you tolerate in binoculars ? (2 Viewers)

I also notice the better light transmission in porros compared to roofs. If comparing "apples to apples", i.e. same magnification, objective size, and build quality I've always found the porros to be brighter. I don't think it's just more light being transmitted but how it's transmitted.

Several months ago over on the Cloudy Nights Binocular Forum there was a discussion about light transmission in porros and roofs where Edz pointed out that "roofs lose full illumination once you move away from dead center". I know on the night sky you can discern very faint objects better with averted vision because of the higher bias of rods vrs cones in the outer part of the pupil.

It makes sense to me that if porros spread the light out over a larger area of the pupil which is more efficient in gathering light a porro should have an inherent advantage in light transmission over a roof. In other words not just the total amount of light transmitted but how much of the percentage of light transmitted through the optical train can be utilized by the human eye.


Anyway I do a lot of terrestrial viewing in low light and I find porros better than roofs....more so than can be explained just by a porro transmitting more light.

Steve

P.S. Welcome to the forum

Are you talking about "full illumination of the exit pupil"? I brought this up a while ago, and Henry said that Edz had recanted on that theory. Has it been revived????

Brock
 
Brock,

The original misconception about this, which you can still read in Ed’s first threads on the subject, was the notion that vignetting in binoculars reduced illumination of “the exit pupil”, as if there is only one exit pupil for the entire image field. In fact there is an infinite number of exit pupils surrounding each point in the field. The only exit pupils that are vignetted by the internal aperturesof binoculars are the off-axis exit pupils that surround off-axis points in the image field. It is possible for all exit pupils across the field to be equally vignetted, as when BK-7 glass is used. In that case the image is dimmed equally across the field, but when internal apertures vignette off-axis exit pupils the effect is a gradual darkening of the image toward the field edge. Ed’s recent posts about this have conformed to the concept of reduced illumination of the off-axis image field rather than “the exit pupil”.

In the real world of viewing through binoculars things are not as predictable as static vignetting measurements suggest. You can see this for yourself if you use a defocused star point to observe the actual off-axis vignetting you experience with a binocular in front of your eyes. You’ll find that there may be more or less vignetting of an off-axis point depending on how you move your pupil to look at that point. In daylight everything changes as the eye’s pupil shrinks. For instance, my roof prism 8x56 has plenty off vignetting at full aperture, but I experience hardly any in daylight because the large 7mm exit pupil maintains enough width across the minor axis of the cat’s eye shaped off-axis exit pupils to remain larger than the pupil of my eye.

Henry
 
Are you talking about "full illumination of the exit pupil"? I brought this up a while ago, and Henry said that Edz had recanted on that theory. Has it been revived????

Brock

Brock

I'm not familiar with the "full illumination of the exit pupil" discussion, must have been discussed before I started reading the binocular forums.

In the discussion on the CN thread I believe what EDZ was referring to is what Henry mentioned above "reduced illumination of the off axis image". EDZ's exact words were "one of the big differences between porros and roofs is that roofs lose full illumination very quickly once you move away from dead center". Off axis and away from dead center seem to be referring to the same area...just different semantics.

I'll try to find the previous discussion on exit pupil since I'm curious about what was said.

Steve
 
I think this file is from that thread. I've got a link to the full thread if I can find it.

Bruce


Brock

I'm not familiar with the "full illumination of the exit pupil" discussion, must have been discussed before I started reading the binocular forums.

In the discussion on the CN thread I believe what EDZ was referring to is what Henry mentioned above "reduced illumination of the off axis image". EDZ's exact words were "one of the big differences between porros and roofs is that roofs lose full illumination very quickly once you move away from dead center". Off axis and away from dead center seem to be referring to the same area...just different semantics.

I'll try to find the previous discussion on exit pupil since I'm curious about what was said.

Steve
 

Attachments

  • Porro light transmission.jpg
    Porro light transmission.jpg
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I only read the first link. It’s a good example of the kind of thing Ed wrote about binocular vignetting before he recognized his mistake. In that piece he writes about the vignetted aperture he sees at the back of a binocular when sighting through the objective as the “exit pupil”. In fact, it is the field stop of the eyepiece and what is being vignetted is the outer part of the field, not the outer part of the exit pupil. Almost everywhere in the piece the term “exit pupil” should be replaced with some term like “fov” or "field”. This mistake started sometime in 2004 when Ed did some laser experiments and thought a circle of laser light projected on a wall behind the binocular was a projected image of the exit pupil, when it was actually a projected image of the eyepiece field stop.

This misinterpretation led to some inscrutable “studies” like the one in the link above and a few acrimonious exchanges, both here and at Cloudynights, when several people tried to correct the error. I think Glenn LeDrew finally convinced Ed of his mistake a year or two ago and most of Ed’s posts on vignetting since then substitute a term like “fov” in places where he would previously have used “exit pupil”. However, all the earlier posts are still there to confuse the unwary.

Edit: I found this old thread. One of the "acrimonious exchanges" begins with Edz's post #10.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=99435
 
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Hi Henry

I certainly don't want to perpetuate any misinformation. If you feel that my post should be deleted, I would be glad to do so.

Bruce

I only read the first link. It’s a good example of the kind of thing Ed wrote about binocular vignetting before he recognized his mistake. In that piece he writes about the vignetted aperture he sees at the back of a binocular when sighting through the objective as the “exit pupil”. In fact, it is the field stop of the eyepiece and what is being vignetted is the outer part of the field, not the outer part of the exit pupil. Almost everywhere in the piece the term “exit pupil” should be replaced with some term like “fov” or "field”. This mistake started sometime in 2004 when Ed did some laser experiments and thought a circle of laser light projected on a wall behind the binocular was a projected image of the exit pupil, when it was actually a projected image of the eyepiece field stop.

This misinterpretation led to some inscrutable “studies” like the one in the link above and a few acrimonious exchanges, both here and at Cloudynights, when several people tried to correct the error. I think Glenn LeDrew finally convinced Ed of his mistake a year or two ago and now most of Ed’s posts on vignetting substitute a term like “fov” in places where he would previously have used “exit pupil”. However, all the earlier posts are still there to confuse the unwary.

Edit: I found this old thread. One of the "acrimonious exchanges" I mentioned above begins with Edz's post #10.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=99435
 
Bruce,

I wouldn't delete anything. A thread like this is useful. Ed's earlier statements about vignetting are quite confusing until you realize they're mistaken.

Henry
 
So the general consensus is that porros do offer "full illumination" farther out from the center of the fov (off axis) than roofs????

Steve
 
Well, the only person who claims to have actually measured it is EdZ, and as Bruce's thumbnail shows, EdZ was quoting his measurements only recently, to the effect that Porros beat roofs in this regard. I don't know if he is still standing by his old measurements (which I could never understand and Henry claims were erroneous) or if he has a new way of doing it.

I can't measure it, but it's easy to just hold the binocular out at arm's length and watch the exit pupil deform into a football as you tilt the binocular, and see how much it has shrunk down when it encounters the edge. By this test, indeed the Porros in my collection (7x50, two 8x30s, 15x60) beat the roofs (8x42, 10x50) by a varying but easily seen margin. The 8x42 Zeiss FL is much closer to the Porros than the 10x50 Leica, however. Something about the AK prisms I wonder? It's interesting, but something I hardly notice in actual use, and even if I do notice, I don't mind.
Ron
 
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Well, the only person who claims to have actually measured it is EdZ, and as Bruce's thumbnail shows, EdZ was quoting his measurements only recently, to the effect that Porros beat roofs in this regard. I don't know if he is still standing by his old measurements (which I could never understand and Henry claims were erroneous) or if he has a new way of doing it.

I can't measure it, but it's easy to just hold the binocular out at arm's length and watch the exit pupil deform into a football as you tilt the binocular, and see how much it has shrunk down when it encounters the edge. By this test, indeed the Porros in my collection (7x50, two 8x30s, 15x60) beat the roofs (8x42, 10x50) by a varying but easily seen margin.
Ron

Ron

Have you ever tried testing your binoculars on faint stars as EDZ suggested in the one CN thread. I've only tried it once but plan to try it again when I get a clear night and I'm not too dang tired. I did notice that my porros performed better than my roofs once I moved away from the center of the fov.

Steve
 
Note the addition to my original post on the great difference between my two roofs.

Steve,
I notice a bit of star dimming at the edge in the Leica, out where the stars are blurred anyway, and where most binoculars will give blackouts if you look directly without repositioning your eyes. I don't worry much about the edge of the field.
Ron
 
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