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Old Wednesday 6th September 2017, 13:41   #1
stevejelf
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Is this Hyles dahlii or Hyles gallii

Hi

I saw this Hawkmoth flying in my garden Aude S. France from its thorax markings I think its H. dahlii Confirmation greatly appreciated
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Old Wednesday 6th September 2017, 13:50   #2
andyadcock
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Hi Steve,
why do you think it dahlii rather that euphorbiae, dahlii isn't migaratory?

I think it's euphorbiae

DISTRIBUTION of dahlii

Corsica, Sardinia and the Balearic Island of Mallorca (Rebel, 1934). Considered to be restricted to these islands, although there are occasional reports of its occurrence in Sicily.


A

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Old Wednesday 6th September 2017, 21:30   #3
stevejelf
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Thank you Andy
I agree its not H. dahlii I had thought the thorax markings would identify the moth as this photo I now realise the extra black spots are missing as herein the first photo shown as stars The third photo shows its pink under colour

This french site was interesting http://sphingidae-haxaire.com/index..../hyles-dahlii/
Quote in English
I was notified in January 2007 of the first catch in continental France of this species, carried out in the area of ​​Jujols, in the Eastern Pyrenees (66) at the end of 2006. In the book Guide of the nocturnal butterflies of France coordinated by Roland Robineau, Schmit (2007: 33) points out this beautiful Hyles from continental France , obviously without controlling the copy quoted.

Thinking that it would be interesting to monitor the possible implantation and progression of the species in our territory, I decided to go to the exact place of this capture. The discoverer, Thierry Varenne, had the kindness to take to me to the same place He also sent me a up and under sided photograph of the individual in question, mentioning that he had observed 3 or 4 the same night. Careful observation of this cliché made me come to the conclusion that it is not Hyles dahlii but a very dark (and somewhat aberrant) copy of Hyles euphorbiae . This specimen does not have the two characters that diagnose H. dahlii, namely the bright pink underside, and especially the two supernumerary black spots on the top of the abdomen. Tony Pittaway and Ian Kitching kindly looked at this shot and agreed. The species is therefore to be removed from the list of Sphingidae of continental France. However, in May 2015, I visited the site with my colleague Gary Saunders, where I had the opportunity to collect H. euphorbiae by the lamp. All my collected samples (6 males) fall within the range of variation of the species. Eggs harvested locally on Euphorbia serrata gave rise to equally typical H. euphorbiae . We have not reviewed the aberration collected by Thierry Varenne.


Looking at many moth sites H. dahlii is often shown without 6 black spots even the one above


As for " isn't migratory"neither is this second picture also in the garden its from Chile, Palm Moth Paysandisia archon another non migratory here is the Geranium Bronze
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Old Thursday 7th September 2017, 09:34   #4
andyadcock
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[quote=stevejelf;3612811

1 . Looking at many moth sites H. dahlii is often shown without 6 black spots even the one above

2 . As for " isn't migratory"neither is this second picture also in the garden its from Chile, Palm Moth Paysandisia archon another non migratory here is the Geranium Bronze[/QUOTE]



1. Ever considered that some of the (many) moth sites are in error just like the example you quoted? People check Google to confirm species but many are identified wrongly and unless some of the sites you're looking at are run by experienced people and not just by e.g me and you, I'd would respect the received wisdom on ID.

2. The species you cite are transported in / on plants, Palm Moth ( accidentally introduced to Europe, native to Uruguay and a pest species in many places) is now on the UK list as is Geranium Bronze.

AFAIK, Spurge Hawkmoth Hyles euphorbiae isn't likely to be found on commercial plants or food stuff and dahlii has a very small range and fairly specific habitat requirements but anything is possible I suppose, however unlikely, which is what I think you mean?


A

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Old Thursday 7th September 2017, 20:53   #5
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As Ian perhaps mentioned, the Med is a known hybrid zone for several of the Hyles group. On Mallorca it is mainly dahlii - but on Menorca they have a higher percentage of euphorbiae. All rather complicated.
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Old Friday 8th September 2017, 08:28   #6
andyadcock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honeym View Post
As Ian perhaps mentioned, the Med is a known hybrid zone for several of the Hyles group. On Mallorca it is mainly dahlii - but on Menorca they have a higher percentage of euphorbiae. All rather complicated.
I did read about it Martin but none seem to move far?

I also read that the origin of dahlii is the result of hybridisation with tithymali and subsequent isolation. Hybrid tithymali / dahlii still occur on Malta.

Some very nice shots by the way Steve.


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Old Friday 8th September 2017, 22:14   #7
stevejelf
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Hi

Perhaps I went over the top on migratory but they must have been or very old to be where they are, some sites indicate East Spain I am not far from their sites, when the space station goes overhead Corsica is above my horizon

I took 80 frames Sport on a Macro lense for my half dozen pictures
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