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Curlew sp. at Minsmere (4 Viewers)

I Know what it is

Hello all,
thank you I.P. for your most imformative reply on hybrids,but they can and still occur or is Darwin wrong ;) (ref post 262) .
It is of course a hybrid curlew/sandpiper x blue tit from N.A.S.A sent too undermine England as we know it
me B :)
 
Warm water though Blue tail the bass love it, although been feeding um too my kids latley. Now they glow in DARK comes in andy at feeding time esp. now the dark nights are comming.
me
 
So lets assume that two vagrant SBC's have indeed recently turned up in the UK. Statistically this would indicate a fairly high probablity of a healthy population.....somewhere!
I really cannot believe that this would remain undocumented or undiscovered for so long to the ornithological world.
As it hasn't materialised then sadly I think it fairly unlikely that one exists, nor are these genuine SBCs, but more than likely a poorly documented but fairly common race or even hybrid of E Curlew. It's a shame but I'm not convinced.
(Unless that poo can tell us otherwise of course!)

JP
 
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Tim Allwood said:
My mate is now warden at Minsmere (and BBRC member too) - bet he's delighted with the prospects for all the work this will involve, plus having to marshall the crowds if it's generally considered a 'good' SBC. If you go, be generous please.

Just wondering what your friends take on the bird was - assuming it's who I think it is his opinion would be interesting to hear....
 
Hi Postie

It's Adam Rowlands - top bloke and fellow old punka too.

I wouldn't feel comfortable putting others' views in the public domain though although I heard on the grapevine one 'big' ;) boy from north Norfolk wanted his petrol money back for the journey! :eek!:
 
that's who I thought - quite understand why you wouldn't put someone elses thought out... good of you not to really.

I heard the same rumour about a claim for expenses... it's clearly an interesting bird what ever it ends up being (though I like many doubt they'll ever be a conclussion) shame people can't just be happy to see it for it's own sake. I guess for many the trip is about getting a tick - not seenig an individual. Must confess seeing the Bairds later was well worth the effort put in - at least I could be sure of what it was ;o)
 
Ashley beolens said:
Tim, we are each entitled to our own oppinion, my only grievence with comments like the one you have just made is that saying it doesn't look right but then not backing it up is a pointless comment!! (no offence meant)

Perhaps the arguement has moved on from when you posted this (the problem of going out in the evening) but....

all bird species have an individual feel and, although this jizz approach to birding has perhaps gone out of fashion, it often holds true. We have all seen hundreds if not thousands (or more) or Eurasian Curlew so have a fairly good idea of the species' behaviour and feel. A different species, as Slender-billed Curlew unquestionably was, would look different based on a combination of both plumage characteristics and behavirour/posture. To a lot of people, including me and numerous others, when we saw this bird it (to quote you) "didn;t look right" for a species other than Eurasian Curlew (especially one which is considered extinct). Whilst this is not a scientifically valid reason for it not being slender-billed it is not a "pointless comment" but an educated opinion based on field experience
 
postcardcv said:
Must confess seeing the Bairds later was well worth the effort put in - at least I could be sure of what it was ;o)
Lucky you! That's more than could be said the day we were there. Lots of claims from the viewing platform, every single one a Little Stint! We never did see the Baird's, but weren't too fussed; we'd all seen one or two in the SW this year already.


jpoyner said:
So lets assume that two vagrant SBC's have indeed recently turned up in the UK. Statistically this would indicate a fairly high probablity of a healthy population.....somewhere!
Not necessarily, unfortunately. The Birding World article on the Druridge bird contained an ingenious theory suggesting that a species used to congregating in large flocks at traditional migration stopover points might, as its numbers dwindled, become more prone to teaming up with congeners. As a result, the rarer it becomes, the more likely it is to turn up in odd places. Only a theory, but an interesting one.
 
Mike Pennington said:
The Minsmere bird has been very instructive and the debate here interesting (despite the arrogant claim of one person that it was arguing in circles and they'd sorted it out straight away).
Ofcourse, this is aimed at the comment I made in something like post #293. Up until this stage the discussion had been very informative and one of the best threads for many a month. I'm sure many people gleaned a Hell of a lot of information from it.
No-one said they'd sorted it out straight away, in fact I seem to remember posting that:
CJW said:
I've only said all along that I doubted this bird's (and it's NE predecessor's) credentials as a Slender-billed Curlew.
Wanting to be able to nicely pigeon-hole everything isn't something I do.
Accept it, we know what it isn't not what it is.
Arrogant?
If you can't see what is actually written down in front of you, how can you comment on the identification of a bird you haven't even seen?
 
me1000 said:
Hello all,
thank you I.P. for your most imformative reply on hybrids,but they can and still occur or is Darwin wrong ;) (ref post 262) .
It is of course a hybrid curlew/sandpiper x blue tit from N.A.S.A sent too undermine England as we know it
me B :)

It is not an absolute situation and ruddy duck issue has clouded things a little in over-emphasising hybridisation. Hybrids seem to occur more in wildfowl and one of the reasons put forward is that captive-bred birds (even of UK species) are getting out and essentially not knowing what they are. [This is not an idea put forward by the RSPB but forgive me for not knowing the source, I would tentatively say WWT but that is probably wrong so if anyone can point me to the literature then I would be grateful.] Just to complicate the issue, wildfowl may be a special case and merely show that speciation is at a relatively low level, especially if we consider that morphology is not always a reliable guide (look at the domestic dog for instance). Anyway, the point seems to be that given natural situations includingextinction (whatever the reason) hybridisation is the exception rather than the rule. there is probably no reason why blue tits and coal tits do not hybrididse but they rarely do although hybrids between azure and blue are know (this does not seem to be cumulative so it is possible hybrids are not fertile, as it shoudl be with Linnaen definitions). Thanks for the opportunity to chat and please forgive me if I am preaching to the converted. B :)
 
Ashley beolens said:
Marek, just to argue agains the points you made (I'm in a fighting mood now) Leg colour is greyish, BWP (my only real reference I;m afriad) states bare parts colour as Grey-Blue to slate grey, so thats fine, bill colour - horn-brown, nearly black at tip; base of lower mandible fleshy-pink or pale horn with faint flesh-red tinge - So thats OK too, as for the colouration, its very subject to the photograph and any later manipulation, I could make those photos green, believe what you saw when there not what you are seeing now. If you then think its a EC cool!

I am really not fussed to get a "tick", barely chase anything these days, I just think too many people are saying its this or its that without backing themselves up, so far nothing has been said which fully rules out SBC, until it is I will follow my heart!

Sorry, the BB article does say that leg colour isn't proven to be significant. If you haven't read it get hold of a copy as it's much more useful than BWP. If you refer to the BB article it states that the bill structure is very important. The Minsmere bird does not have a slender bill. I can't see how anybody can argue that it does. In SBC the amount of flesh colour on the lower mandible is said to extend no more than 1/3 (or something like that) and the Minsmere bird has what appears to be a wholly flesh coloured lower mandible. In addition the bill is definitely dark brown as opposed to black. I think the bill colour/structure alone makes this a non starter.

I don't think it's a EC but I don't think it's a SBC. Don't know what it is! Hybrid theory sounds good. In fact, it's a probable Eskimo x Slender-billed Curlew hybrid ;0)
 
Jane Turner said:
An interesting debate that needs to be had is what does this episode imply for the Northumberland bird.. which while it looked a load better then this one... there must be now be significant doubt... Clearly it is possible for EC / Steppe Whimbrel or some hybrid to show features thought to be associated with SBC.

Hi Jane,

I am still drawn to this discussion despite promising myself I had little else to add because my only chance to see the bird will be the coming w/e. However, I think your words here have some interesting implications and it is one area where I agree with CJW. It seems to me that if the Minsmere bird fails the test then the Druridge birds must be re-evaluated. I think this is making some people cautious in the wrong direction possibly with the worry of losing a tick. My personal feeling is towards an aberrant bird rather than a hybrid and I would stick my neck out and even cautiously suggest whimbrel rather than EC. To be honest, I think we are all obsessed with being wrong and that is not important and I am looking forward to being proved wrong and discussing the actual ID.

Ian
 
basically not enough is known about 'curlews' and their variation in central asia eg sushkini, mixed pairings etc and until work is done here I guess we may not be able to put a satisfactory name to the bird.......although this was apparent from the Druridge bird too!
 
It's a Slender-billed Curlew. I've not read one single decent argument as to why it isn't, but plenty as to why it is!

Now seen it twice and I was present on Monday when about 60 people were all very vocal about why this bird on The Levels was most definitely not SBC. And oh how I was shouted down for telling them that this bird was not the same as the one I saw the other day. One tw@t had a go at me so I went off instead to see the Baird's. I'd loved to have seen the look on their faces when the real bird was suddenly found in the stubble fields!

It's all good fun, eh?
 
Curlews.......

Ian Peters said:
Hi Jane,

I am still drawn to this discussion despite promising myself I had little else to add because my only chance to see the bird will be the coming w/e. However, I think your words here have some interesting implications and it is one area where I agree with CJW. It seems to me that if the Minsmere bird fails the test then the Druridge birds must be re-evaluated. I think this is making some people cautious in the wrong direction possibly with the worry of losing a tick. My personal feeling is towards an aberrant bird rather than a hybrid and I would stick my neck out and even cautiously suggest whimbrel rather than EC. To be honest, I think we are all obsessed with being wrong and that is not important and I am looking forward to being proved wrong and discussing the actual ID.

Ian

I am very surprised by the frequent comparisons between the Minsmere Curlew sp. and the Druridge Bay bird, why should the identification of this latest bird lead to a re-evaluation of the Druridge SBC? Having now seen the Minsmere bird I can see few similarities between the birds in terms of structure or 'jizz' although the plumage does show some similarities there are some striking differences amply shown by photos of the two birds.

After more than 8 hours total viewing of the bird I was confident, and still am, of the identification of that bird as Slender-billed Curlew albiet based on present knowledge........of interest would be interested to know from people who doubt the ID of this bird (and there seem to be quite a few on this group) as to which features they consider don't match SBC?

As for the Minsmere bird........having had excellent views and studied the various photos of the bird I am left completely confused and undecided.......I would have to say that if I found this bird and attempted to identify it using currently accepted criteria I would certainly not be able to confidently identify it as either species.
It seems to me from reading all the literature and Didiers comments that all the features of the bird could match Slender-billed Curlew......
My main concerns on viewing the bird were the size (said to be Ok by Didier...) and particularly the bill shape and colour which seems at odds with all literature & most photos but see photos on link below of Imm SBC
http://www.birdnet-cms.de/cms/frontcontent.phpidcatart=209&lang=1&client=1
The bill shape & colouration appear to match the Minsmere bird very closely.
Other feature eg Underwing & upperwing looked perfect for SBC and match Druridge bird although could probably be shown by EC as well?
The flank markings look fine for SBC again see above link for variation.
Almost all other plumage features are variable and OK for either species eg leg colour, eyerings( for imms at least).
2 features which I would be interested to hear comments on are;
1) Background pattern to lower breast / upperflanks, showing brown barring behind the spots/markings, would this be typical for a Imm SBC, it is not show in the link above in which the bird shows a white background with no markings (as did the Druridge bird - although this was in a more advance plumage)
2) Didier mentions that the secondary / tertial pattern is good for SBC, a feature no one else seems to have picked up on, anyone know anything about this feature?
In conclusion if Didier can provide evidence that features of this bird eg Size are OK for SBC then it is possible that all plumage features may match SBC, personally I would take a lot of convincing however that these features couldn't also be shown by a EC (especially as the structure and Jizz are to my eye identical to EC), it is certainly the case that our current knowledge is inadequate, Didier clearly has a greater knowledge of the species than anyone else, hopefully this bird will encourage him to make some of it available to the rest of us.
It may well be that the overlap between the two species is so great that birds like this may never be safely identifiable - unless you can analyse some shit of course!

Finally really wish people wouldn't always use the hybrid / abberant tag to disguise our lack of knowledge........as for the bird being a Whimbrel????????? Would love to hear the reasoning behind that theory........

All the best,
Rob

PS Tim - Looking forward to the beer & pies, trust there will be some nice big portions for the Derby Boyz B B :)
 
Watcha Rob

good to see the Derbys mafia taking over BF. You can have James' beer and pies. B :)

there was a post from LGRE re tertials and implications thereof earlier on. Reading the stuff about Ushakov's expeditions has been quite enlightening. It appears that breeding has never been certainly documented between TWO SBCs anywhere in the light of doubts over Ushakov's work. There does seem to be a bit of a vacuum in knowledge of these species/races/forms/whatevers

Tommo - don't get wound up mate :C ...although i would have liked to have seen your 'altercation' with the masses! 'ave it! :eek!:
 
The most valuable thing I'm learning from this is that I'll do anything for a tick! Especially as I can't afford to go to Barra!

I'm still convinced with this as SBC, but thoroughly prepared to be called "Great Tit of the Year" if that crap turns out to be Eurasian DNA!!!
 
tom mckinney said:
It's a Slender-billed Curlew. I've not read one single decent argument as to why it isn't, but plenty as to why it is!
I'd be very interested to hear Didier Vangeluwe's arguments for SBC since it's against his own criteria and Jimmy Steele's (they wrote the BB article) that the Minsmere bird doesn't appear to stack up.

1) Why is the bill so thick and without the fine tip characteristic of SBC?
2) Why is the bill so extensively pinkish-brown (as mentioned above by Marek)?
3) Why is the mantle no darker than Eurasian Curlew?
4) Why is there such a clear eye-ring?
5) Why are the tertials and tail more closely barred than the Druridge bird?
6) Why is the breast streaking so indistinct?
7) Why is there such a dark ground colour to the breast?

This is more or less the same as the list I posted before, though one or two points have now been addressed. I would be delighted to see evidence countering the rest, but for the moment I don't consider this bird is securely identifiable as a Slender-billed Curlew.
 
Rob Hutchinson said:
Finally really wish people wouldn't always use the hybrid / abberant tag to disguise our lack of knowledge........as for the bird being a Whimbrel????????? Would love to hear the reasoning behind that theory........

All the best,
Rob

My mind is open on the true ID and to be honest, I have no definitive reason for accepting or rejecting hybrids other than I don't think it is likely. However, I don't think the case against an aberrant form is proven but I really don't care if I am wrong about this idea. With respect Rob, I have yet to see a detailed reason why an aberrant form is a non-starter including with colleagues here at The Lodge who are a lot more experienced than I am. In fact, if we go a stage further and point out that someone has offered every single possibility then inevitably some people will be right and others, wrong. What I disagree with is the statements that seem to read as "it is because I say it is". I am sure not everyone falls into this camp but equally, some clearly do. Like I said earlier, I am looking forward to seeing what the bird actually is even if it totally contradicts any of my ideas.

Cheers

Ian

P.S. I may see some of you over the w/e so as ever, stop and say "Hi!".
 
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