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Nikon centralizes optical engineering (1 Viewer)

Nikon is a fairly typical large Japanese player. They seem to do chasing dominance really well, but the hunger seems to get dulled by size and regimented tradition once a measure of dominance is obtained. Don't ever expect revolution then, just slow, steady evolution, with status quo market niches well protected and segmented from each other. ie. don't expect any big steps in the low to mid range product line up that would obsolete their flagship offering. Hyper competition it ain't ..... :cat:

The EDG's won't be improved until they have to be, and this will slow the whole chain. Nikon would do well to update the SE and EII lines as well, and listen to the Service complaints across the binocular business and address that more in line with an Alpha brand. Perhaps they are a little lost strategically - never mind, some venerable sensei will be along in due course with a nifty 100 year plan to sort it out ....


Chosun :gh:

That view is pessimistic but probably accurate.
These optics makers have experienced the evaporation of much of their camera business because cell phones eliminate the need for most buyers. They had to retrench and trim to survive.
Binoculars and scopes are a minute part of the business, for Nikon as well as for Canon. These sectors will have to subsist on crumbs until the corporate health improves. So not much change is likely for the next few years.
 
Nikon is a fairly typical large Japanese player. They seem to do chasing dominance really well, but the hunger seems to get dulled by size and regimented tradition once a measure of dominance is obtained. Don't ever expect revolution then, just slow, steady evolution, with status quo market niches well protected and segmented from each other. ie. don't expect any big steps in the low to mid range product line up that would obsolete their flagship offering. Hyper competition it ain't ..... :cat:

The EDG's won't be improved until they have to be, and this will slow the whole chain. Nikon would do well to update the SE and EII lines as well, and listen to the Service complaints across the binocular business and address that more in line with an Alpha brand. Perhaps they are a little lost strategically - never mind, some venerable sensei will be along in due course with a nifty 100 year plan to sort it out ....


Chosun :gh:


Chosun,

The EDG is getting a little long in the tooth and an update of it may be in Nikon's future and who knows; maybe even an update of the SEs and EIIs, however unlikely, could take place?

The EDG appeared about 9 years ago in 2008 or so in its original double hinged format which is informally identified as the "EDG I." Its exterior changed to a single hinged format in 2010 and it became the "EDG II." The binocular's internal optics, as far as we know, remained the same.

Here is a 2008 thread discussing whether or not the Nikon 8x32 SE was better than the Nikon 7x42 EDG which I found at the bottom of this thread.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=127857

Your comment above revives that old chestnut that "the more things change the more they remain the same!":king::t:

Bob
 
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Although I would be surprised if NIkon won in all areas I know they do well in the binocular market. But that is irrelevant - since this is a very knowledgeable crowd here I know we don't determine if a brand is making top notch stuff based on their sales. I honestly felt that it was well understood that Nikon is just so-so in the mid-range segment these days. Like I said, would you would really recommend the Monarchs as a best in class choice? Maybe I'm wrong.

Hi Pete

Your opinion about Nikon's efforts in the mid range is as valid as anyone's but if we asked on here for folks to say what is best in this price bracket you would probably get an answer that you could calculate with the following formula: number of members who reply X the number of brands on the market.

It is unclear exactly why you are focussing on the mid range but lets consider what you might be saying.

1 Nikon doesn't deserve respect unless it is the best in the mid range. Well this logic takes respect away from Zeiss and Leica as there are plenty of folks who will say Conquest and Trinovid are decent but they aren't the best in class. And equally you will find folks who point to Monarch HG and say 'beat that if you can'.

2 Nikon doesn't deserve respect unless they are the best in all ranges and you are just choosing the mid-range as an example. This logic takes respect off Swarovski too since many will say that while their CL is very nice it is easily beaten in its class. And lets be realistic, Nikon is in so many niches in the bino market, can any company be best in all categories?

3 Nikon has been the best in all categories in the past in binos and photo lenses and it has lost its way. Was Nikon ever best in all categories? Really? The SE and EII porros are revered still, and some will say EDG is the best of the best. So why pick on the middle range where some will say Monarch HG is about to upset both established brands and newcomers? And I don't believe for one moment that either Nikon or Canon have ever been best is every photo lens category at the same time.

I am not a Nikon fan-boy but if I wanted to pick half a dozen mid-range binos to take on bino-binge trip then I would certainly want Nikon in there. Not because they are necessarily the best (try getting an agreement about what that is! :)) but because they are there or thereabouts.

Lee
 
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Hi Maico.
It may be that the Nikkor 300mm f/2 lenses were the fastest production 300mm lenses in 35mm format.

However, in 70mm and larger formats there are or were lenses as fast or faster.

Makers of large fast lenses were, in no particular order. Astro Berlin, Tewe, Kilfitt, Cooke, TTH (Baird T.V. for example c.1930, Aldis, Ross, Dallmeyer, Meyer?, Kowa, Nikon, Zeiss, Pentax?, Wray, Wild, Den Oude Delft, Schneider? 400mm f/2 1940s, Perkin Elmer, Itek, Lichtenknecker, Leica?, Ross.

Then there are Schmidt lenses of 300mm f/1 about.
Schmidt/Maksutov 300mm f/0.9 and similar f/1.25.
Celestron f/1.95 and f/2.2.
Italian makes, maybe also Austrian?
Research and military firms made f/0.5 lenses and faster.

These come to mind.
There are no doubt others.

The Bresser and other brands 7x32 binocular has a field of over 13 degrees but poor performance. Also 10x50? similar.
 
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Hi Maico.
It may be that the Nikkor 300mm f/2 lenses were the fastest production 300mm lenses in 35mm format.

However, in 70mm and larger formats there are or were lenses as fast or faster.

Makers of large fast lenses were, in no particular order. Astro Berlin, Tewe, Kilfitt, Cooke, TTH (Baird T.V. for example c.1930, Aldis, Ross, Dallmeyer, Meyer?, Kowa, Nikon, Zeiss, Pentax?, Wray, Wild, Den Oude Delft, Schneider? 400mm f/2 1940s, Perkin Elmer, Itek, Lichtenknecker, Leica?, Ross.

Then there are Schmidt lenses of 300mm f/1 about.
Schmidt/Maksutov 300mm f/0.9 and similar f/1.25.
Celestron f/1.95 and f/2.2.
Italian makes, maybe also Austrian?
Research and military firms made f/0.5 lenses and faster.

These come to mind.
There are no doubt others.

300mm f 0.9 ? where ?

The Nikkor is huge weighing in at over 16 Lbs

http://www.company7.com/library/nikon/Nikon_0300f2.html
 
I think my post is being over-thought. All I am saying is that 10 and 20 years ago, they would have been a very common recommendation (IMO) to someone who is looking for a binocular. Nowadays, I don't see them recommended much, and I wouldn't recommend them either as I agree with at least one other posters that their is usually a better choice for less.

I don't know about respect. I don't tend to apply the word respect to a company unless they are run by a specific family or person - otherwise they are an ever-shifting group of people with who-knows-what background. That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy their stuff though, or that they might have a good group of people today (subject to change tomorrow).

I guess part of the reason I posted some of these thoughts was to see if I have the wrong idea of them. And based on the response, it's very possible. Although except for ceasar, no one said they would actually tell a friend to buy a Nikon as the best choice. Grabbing a half-dozen choices doesn't count - I will admit they might be in the top 6 for a particular price point.

I was talking about mid-range because its all I know about Nikon. If you think they have the best high end binoculars, fair enough. Maybe that's the market they are going for and don't try as hard for the lower end areas since they already dominate in sales (and they will only readdress if those start falling).
 
Hi Maico,
Post 25
D.Bonaccini 1992 Design of f/0.9 Schmidt Maksutov cameras for 8m class telescope.
This is a 300mm.

There are in fact many Schmidts around f/1.

Schmidt camera - Wiki. gives details.

12 Baker Nunn cameras were used for tracking satellites from late 1950s to mid 1970s. 375mm approx. focal length f/0.75.
3.5 tons each.

I have seen a refracting 14inch f/0.75 lens, weighing about 350lbs. With an 18 inch or slightly larger front element. This was used for tracking. Mounted on the back of a truck.

The 12inch f/2.5 Aero Ektars of which I had about 3 or 4 were very heavy. I donated them to museums.
I also had an 8inch f/1.5 Aero Ektar, extremely heavy, which went to lens heaven about 1990 and the TTH 8inch f/1.4. A professional photographer used his 8inch f/1.4 TTH on 5x4 inch film for industrial photography.
Also the 180mm f/1.3 Zoomar. I never did see a 240mm f/1.2 Zoomatar for 70mm format. They had matched teleconverters. I had the 2x teleconverter.

There are also very large fast Russian lenses.

P.S. The Wray 36inch f/4 lenses are heavier than 16lbs. I had a job lifting them. The internal shutters could take ones hand off if one were silly enough to put a hand through the lens. 9 inch front elements. Good quality glass.
 
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The problem with really fast large lenses is that many are not civilian and written details sometimes don't exist.
Sometimes even the maker's name is missing from the optics.
In fact some don't officially exist. So one has to actually see them.

I had to leave my camera at reception at one facility and was not allowed to take notes, although I was able to closely inspect some amazing lenses.

However, photos taken with some of them are classic and have been widely reproduced re. the space programme.

The Celestron 300mm f/1.5 Schmidt camera turns up sometimes and should have Epoch modifications.
I think that prices are reasonable.

See.
J. Dragesco JBAA 1994.
Celestron Schmidt cameras
15 lbs weight.
Hypered TP 2415 Film best.
Not sure if they can be used with digital sensors.

Regarding Nikon.
I would advise Nikon Aculons and Action VII binoculars as the first choice in low price binoculars.
Wide fields, very useful and only about one in ten seem to have alignment problems.
Similarly, other lower price Nikon binoculars in Europe are good choices, despite my disappointing 8x42 Monarch HG.
 
The problem with really fast large lenses is that many are not civilian and written details sometimes don't exist.
Sometimes even the maker's name is missing from the optics.
In fact some don't officially exist. So one has to actually see them.

I had to leave my camera at reception at one facility and was not allowed to take notes, although I was able to closely inspect some amazing lenses.

However, photos taken with some of them are classic and have been widely reproduced re. the space programme.

The Celestron 300mm f/1.5 Schmidt camera turns up sometimes and should have Epoch modifications.
I think that prices are reasonable.

See.
J. Dragesco JBAA 1994.
Celestron Schmidt cameras
15 lbs weight.
Hypered TP 2415 Film best.
Not sure if they can be used with digital sensors.

Regarding Nikon.
I would advise Nikon Aculons and Action VII binoculars as the first choice in low price binoculars.
Wide fields, very useful and only about one in ten seem to have alignment problems.
Similarly, other lower price Nikon binoculars in Europe are good choices, despite my disappointing 8x42 Monarch HG.

Regarding Nikon, I couldn't agree more, except for the fact that if you loose the eyecup (even after three months) the repaircost Nikon demands is as high as the wholesaleprice of a new Nikon:-C:-C
What to do as a customer:smoke:

Jan
 
https://www.dpreview.com/news/53680...ineering-departments-from-across-the-business

On the camera front the comments have mostly been about Nikon's financial issues lately, but I'm wondering if this move to centralization will help with their optics quality, especially with respect to binoculars. I feel their mid-range stuff has been just OK lately and maybe this will move them up the ladder a bit.

Much has been written in this thread about Nikon quality and, I think, a good bit about their financial strength. I am not nearly as concerned about them centralizing ANYTHING as I am with them stopping the “shuck and jive,” documenting problems that don’t exist, and getting people on the bench who know how to fix the problems that do.

Because of that, I thought I might share a letter I prepared just this morning. The president of the local Audubon Society recommended to a fellow that I have a look at his wife’s binocular. Two or three months ago, I did so. After two unproductive trips to So Cal the bino was again brought to me to check. The letter below is the result.

Bill

*****

170407

Mr. Ruprecht:

Although my birding binocular is a Nikon (8x32 SE), its predecessor was a Nikon (EII), my astronomy binocular is a Nikon (Prostar), and for many years I got excellent and prompt repair service from the company, things began to fall apart for me during the time a certain person—who shall remain nameless—was in charge of west coast binocular repairs. At that time, I was plunged into the world of denial, name-calling, innuendo, and a lack in the ability to perform basic repairs and sometimes failure to even recognize the problem. I would suggest you contact the New York location to see if you might have the work done on the east coast. That, however, MIGHT not buy you much. Some people in Seattle would send their binos back to Wayne, New Jersey to be repaired only to have Fujinon send them to Baker Marine in San Diego.

I know Cory Suddarth of Suddarth Optical Repair in Henryetta, Oklahoma could do the job in his sleep. He worked with me as a Navy Opticalman and for me in the Precision Instruments & Optics department at Captain’s Nautical Supplies in Seattle.

Having sent your Monarch to Los Angeles, twice, I doubt you will get the service you need from them. According to the repair invoice you showed me, they performed various tasks on your instrument including collimation. However, your binocular didn’t NEED most of them, including collimation. Your problem was and IS that the throw on the right telescope is short of coming to a focus by at least 1 or 2 diopters for an emmetropic observer. This indicates the right objective needs to be recessed or (more likely) that the internal focus mechanism on the right side has slipped. This is something that would have jumped out for a 20-year old technician with 2 months at the bench—the first time it was sent back! That told me a great deal about their concern and capabilities. And telling you that you need to “BUY” another new binocular, when the one you have is pristine is considerably more than ludicrous.

“... Bill is not out to protect brands and factories when they continually mislead consumers about their products. Instead, he tells it like it is — straight and honest — even when manufacturers get upset when they hear the truth...”— Alan Hale, co-founder and former president of Celestron

Enjoy your European vacation. If you lose or damage the bino I lent you ... oh, well. Be of good cheer; I’ve got to get rid of several, anyway. :cat:

Bill

William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USN Ret.
 
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Regarding Nikon, I couldn't agree more, except for the fact that if you loose the eyecup (even after three months) the repaircost Nikon demands is as high as the wholesaleprice of a new Nikon:-C:-C
What to do as a customer:smoke:

Jan

Roger Cicala, founder of Lens Rentals, had the following in his 2012 Christmas letter to Santa regarding Nikon:

--Nikon: I’m asking for a lot here, Santa, but ‘tis the season to help those in need.
First, if you could fit a quality control department in the sleigh that would be lovely.
Also, could you bring Nikon USA a reasonable Factory Service Center, too?--

So the issue is not recent and cannot have escaped corporate attention.
That suggests that Nikon has concluded that customer support is no longer a viable sector in this era of shrink wrapped disposable gear.
 
Although I would be surprised if NIkon won in all areas I know they do well in the binocular market. But that is irrelevant - since this is a very knowledgeable crowd here I know we don't determine if a brand is making top notch stuff based on their sales. I honestly felt that it was well understood that Nikon is just so-so in the mid-range segment these days. Like I said, would you would really recommend the Monarchs as a best in class choice? Maybe I'm wrong.

You are wrong IMHO ! , Allbinos rank the Monarch HG as 'outstanding'
http://www.allbinos.com/314-binoculars_review-Nikon_Monarch_HG_10x42.html

The E 8x30 porro is a favorite of many

http://www.allbinos.com/270-binoculars_review-Nikon_8x30E_II.html
 
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Regarding Nikon, I couldn't agree more, except for the fact that if you loose the eyecup (even after three months) the repaircost Nikon demands is as high as the wholesaleprice of a new Nikon:-C:-C
What to do as a customer:smoke:

Jan

Just bought a new Nikon Action EX 8x40 off Amazon for £67 GBP. Very nice central image quality for little money. Replaced the extending eyecups with rubber cups. The original have a habit of falling off because all the holds them on is a 2mm ball bearing running in a plastic track. They can actually be jammed on fully out with a bit of manipulation. All metal body, water proof, nitrogen filled, basic lens coatings internally, but wide view and feel good in the hand. All the ones I've played with develop nice smooth focus with use.
The only weak model in the range is perhaps the 16x50 which I tried but it seems to lack bite.
 
The problem with really fast large lenses is that many are not civilian and written details sometimes don't exist.
Sometimes even the maker's name is missing from the optics.
In fact some don't officially exist. So one has to actually see them.

I had to leave my camera at reception at one facility and was not allowed to take notes, although I was able to closely inspect some amazing lenses.

However, photos taken with some of them are classic and have been widely reproduced re. the space programme.

The Celestron 300mm f/1.5 Schmidt camera turns up sometimes and should have Epoch modifications.
I think that prices are reasonable.

See.
J. Dragesco JBAA 1994.
Celestron Schmidt cameras
15 lbs weight.
Hypered TP 2415 Film best.
Not sure if they can be used with digital sensors.

Here's one. It does look a bit like a dustbin with a front element and body filled with mirrors... https://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=554588
 
Just bought a new Nikon Action EX 8x40 off Amazon for £67 GBP. Very nice central image quality for little money. Replaced the extending eyecups with rubber cups. The original have a habit of falling off because all the holds them on is a 2mm ball bearing running in a plastic track. They can actually be jammed on fully out with a bit of manipulation. All metal body, water proof, nitrogen filled, basic lens coatings internally, but wide view and feel good in the hand. All the ones I've played with develop nice smooth focus with use.
The only weak model in the range is perhaps the 16x50 which I tried but it seems to lack bite.

Seems a poor man's Habicht, at 10% or less of the price and with a better FoV to boot.
Nikon makes some spectacular value glass. Too bad their marketing and support are not equally excellent.
 
Hi Maico.
The Celestron 300mm f/1.5 Schmidt camera is probably a lot cheaper than a Nikon 300mm f/2.
But it would need some kind of field flattener for a digital or a curved sensor. It maybe there are military curved sensors.

The complete 36inch f/4 Wray lens housing with lens looks like a huge dustbin. I got one for £10. The others up to £60. I gave them to people who might use them and were stronger than me. They were used I think on 9x9 inch film at full aperture for night photography. Perhaps late 1960s, maybe Prof. Wynne designed it.The resolution is rather poor but does the job. His Wray series 3 12 inch, 24 inch and 36 inch f/6.3 are really good. The earlier ones not so good.

Oldham Optical, Scarborough? say they will make you a 300mm f/1 Schmidt camera and up to 500mm f/1.
They say they have made 300mm f/1 mirrors. Probably cost a bit.

The 240mm f1.2 Zoomatar for 70mm format with a Minolta MD mount and a Minolta MAF to MD adaptor would make a Zoomatar 300mm f/1.5 lens as the MAF to MD adaptor has a 1.25x lens element in it. This would fit either MAF or Sony A cameras. But the lenses go for about $35,000 dollars.

I had numerous Kilfitt/Zoomar mount adapters for Alpa, Contarex, Minolta etc etc.

Nikon do make some very good value binoculars. I haven't got any Nikon Action Ex as I don't need waterproofing.
The 12x56 Nikon Roof prism I like, as I do the 12x56 Barr and Stroud.

25 degree C today. I had the air conditioner on.

P.S.
Not sure if some Schmidt cameras have flat fields at focus or if all are curved. Some do have special extra correcting optics.
 
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You are wrong IMHO !
I have to admit it seems so. While I think I may have a minor point regarding some specific models Nikon offers (coincidentally the ones I was interested in at some point), it looks like many of their other offerings are indeed pretty darn good.
But, I got some great information about Nikon in the process, which I greatly appreciate. It looks like they can/should do a lot more around customer service, at least in the U.S.. I hope they realize that there are many smaller players who would love to eat their lunch and they strive to be as hungry as everyone else is in this market.
 
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