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Would you buy a top shelf alpha Swaro, Zeiss, Leica or Nikon "MADE IN CHINA?" (1 Viewer)

I remember when the "Made in China" sport optics were being aimed at hunters and some pulled out the old cliche "Better Dead than Red," but now if you read Optics Talk and 24hrcampfire, you'll find a lot of discussions about Chinese-made sports optics.

Brock

None of the "Made in China" comments are really positive on the 24 HR and an absolute deal killer for many there, at least those who post the most. It is an albatross around the neck.

The ZEN Prime is real close to the alpha level, so it is no great stretch to think the next step is impossible. In fact...FWIW...a Swarovski guy at a show looked me straight in the eye and said he had no doubt whatsoever that the Chinese Optics industry was completely capable of exactly replicating the Swarovision and the SLC-HD. Whether by reproducing that design or one of their own.

What they need is a reason to do so. I think many companies are completely content with the sample variation and QC they get from China. It seems to me that many US companies are FAR less concerned today about quality than they used to be. We are in the Bean Counter phase of profit. Cheaper to replace a lesser item. So when the Chines Optics industry gets proper motivation to produce demonstrably superior optics...they will.

BTW, if I'm the guy you meant about working their booth and having some connection with ZR, I will point out that I never said the Prime HD was their answer to the SV. I in fact strongly advised ZR against naming it the "Zen Ray Vision HD". What they intended to do with the Prime was to provide a significant improvement to their ED 3 series and included in the improvements was the addition of a flat field. I think they did that. Having said that, it is logical to assume the flat field of the SV is a logical point of comparison. ZR realizes that. I think they probably drew a few sales for a good, relatively inexpensive, flat field binocular, but Charles never intended tor the Prime to go head to head with a SV. Too much gap.
 
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With the lack of decent environmental and pollution laws, you don't know what might be in the food products made in China.

.

I understand. But globalised food production means one is never quite sure what one is eating, no matter where it´s from. We´ve just been through an interesting phase in beef-production in Europe, where it turns out a lot of products advertised as 100% beef have contained substantial amounts of horsemeat, uncontrolled and untested, and riddled with antibiotics and growth-hormones. The problem isn´t confined to China. And let´s not forget the whole worldwide BSE scandal from the eighties and nineties, the whole sche-bang involving meat from cows that were effectively eating other cows. I´m disqualified from donating blood, or my organs if I cop it, because I lived in England in the eighties! I´m pretty sure my Pak-Choi and Bitter Melon from China is safer than European Beef.
The China-bashing that appears on forums here smells of transference - our products and labour conditions good, theirs bad. It´s simply untrue that the average Chinese worker is employed under Victorian sweatshop manufacturing conditions - theirs is a pretty free labour market now (hey folks, you wanted Capitalism, you got Capitalism!). The burgeoning Chinese middle-classes are far more content with their administration and employment conditions than are those in most other countries. People I worked with in the eighties there, who at the time wore plastic shoes and lived in dormitories, now live in pleasant apartments, drive private cars and send their offspring to Universities in the U.S., Canada, and Australia, something I could never dream of, and have comparatively more disposal income than I. And yes Brock, the one-child policy is being relaxed. Horrible though some of its consequences were, there wasn´t that much official opposition to it from the West, given that the Chinese population, if allowed to grow exponentially, would have meant demand on the world´s resources that would have sped up world environmental degradation to levels even worse than we have now. A messy topic and full of contradictions, believe me I´ve in-laws with tough experiences, but most Chinese accepted the policy with stoicism.
As regards the optical industry, Bausch and Lomb have just announced 200 redundancies at their plant in Waterford, Ireland, and 20% pay cuts for the remaining 800 staff, to bring their wages in line with those at their plant in Rochester, N.Y. That´s capitalism folks, you works for globalism and you takes the consequences. The guys in Rochester lost out to B&L moving a plant to Ireland, the Irish guys take the hit when B&L move elsewhere. I haven´t de-commissioned my B&L 12x50 Elites in protest.
If one is truly concerned about the quality of Chinese goods, or the labour rights of Chinese workers, one should boycott them. The result, as I said before, would be to leave your home devoid of most of its electronics, clothes etc., and not do the average Chinese worker one bit of service, anymore than boycotting U.S. goods because of labour issues there would help U.S. production workers.
Again, no contentious argument intended, I find it a fascinating economic and social debate. (And I had Szechuan spiced-beef tofu for dinner...;))
 
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A million words can be written about all manor of social, economic, or political concerns pertaining to Chinese manufacture, but if they ever produce a true equal to Swaro, Zeiss, etc, for substantially less money, they will be purchased in huge numbers.
 
I understand. But globalised food production means one is never quite sure what one is eating, no matter where it´s from. We´ve just been through an interesting phase in beef-production in Europe, where it turns out a lot of products advertised as 100% beef have contained substantial amounts of horsemeat, uncontrolled and untested, and riddled with antibiotics and growth-hormones. The problem isn´t confined to China. And let´s not forget the whole worldwide BSE scandal from the eighties and nineties, the whole sche-bang involving meat from cows that were effectively eating other cows. I´m disqualified from donating blood, or my organs if I cop it, because I lived in England in the eighties! I´m pretty sure my Pak-Choi and Bitter Melon from China is safer than European Beef.
The China-bashing that appears on forums here smells of transference - our products and labour conditions good, theirs bad. It´s simply untrue that the average Chinese worker is employed under Victorian sweatshop manufacturing conditions - theirs is a pretty free labour market now (hey folks, you wanted Capitalism, you got Capitalism!). The burgeoning Chinese middle-classes are far more content with their administration and employment conditions than are those in most other countries. People I worked with in the eighties there, who at the time wore plastic shoes and lived in dormitories, now live in pleasant apartments, drive private cars and send their offspring to Universities in the U.S., Canada, and Australia, something I could never dream of, and have comparatively more disposal income than I. And yes Brock, the one-child policy is being relaxed. Horrible though some of its consequences were, there wasn´t that much official opposition to it from the West, given that the Chinese population, if allowed to grow exponentially, would have meant demand on the world´s resources that would have sped up world environmental degradation to levels even worse than we have now. A messy topic and full of contradictions, believe me I´ve in-laws with tough experiences, but most Chinese accepted the policy with stoicism.
As regards the optical industry, Bausch and Lomb have just announced 200 redundancies at their plant in Waterford, Ireland, and 20% pay cuts for the remaining 800 staff, to bring their wages in line with those at their plant in Rochester, N.Y. That´s capitalism folks, you works for globalism and you takes the consequences. The guys in Rochester lost out to B&L moving a plant to Ireland, the Irish guys take the hit when B&L move elsewhere. I haven´t de-commissioned my B&L 12x50 Elites in protest.
If one is truly concerned about the quality of Chinese goods, or the labour rights of Chinese workers, one should boycott them. The result, as I said before, would be to leave your home devoid of most of its electronics, clothes etc., and not do the average Chinese worker one bit of service, anymore than boycotting U.S. goods because of labour issues there would help U.S. production workers.
Again, no contentious argument intended, I find it a fascinating economic and social debate. (And I had Szechuan spiced-beef tofu for dinner...;))

You will be fine, hell it's a veritable gourmet paradise. http://guardianlv.com/2014/01/walmart-recalls-donkey-meat-tainted-with-fox/

In my opinion, unchecked capitalism is just as dangerous as unchecked communism.
 
Is the world 'using' the Chinese as much as the Chinese are 'using us?"...

If a particular optic is made in China and it is not up to par, is it the fault of the Chinese or the fault of the company who out-sources out to China?

I realize that Black and Decker is not an optic, but someone mentioned Black and Decker a few postings up. It is obvious to tell that quality of Black and Decker isn't what it used to be just by the feel of their product let alone most of them have an extremely low working shelf life. Is this China's fault or Black and Decker's as they also try to save money and keep profits up.

So can China make an exact replicate of the Swaro SLC? Perhaps, but since China has no companies of its own and simply is there for the whim of the company that wants to squeeze out bigger profits, perhaps we will never know how truly capable China is. But for now, I continue to have the mindset that if something is 'made in china' it can stay in china....
 
Is the world 'using' the Chinese as much as the Chinese are 'using us?"...

If a particular optic is made in China and it is not up to par, is it the fault of the Chinese or the fault of the company who out-sources out to China?

I realize that Black and Decker is not an optic, but someone mentioned Black and Decker a few postings up. It is obvious to tell that quality of Black and Decker isn't what it used to be just by the feel of their product let alone most of them have an extremely low working shelf life. Is this China's fault or Black and Decker's as they also try to save money and keep profits up.

So can China make an exact replicate of the Swaro SLC? Perhaps, but since China has no companies of its own and simply is there for the whim of the company that wants to squeeze out bigger profits, perhaps we will never know how truly capable China is. But for now, I continue to have the mindset that if something is 'made in china' it can stay in china....

I really dont think any of the quality problems are inherently Chinese problems. They are building down to a specification they are given by many companies who want to cheap out anyway they can. Management who looks at hitting some big bucks in profit and then leave the investors holding stock thats worth very little when poor quality blows the brand apart. Black & Decker and Skil started down that road years ago, but they did it with made in US stuff. Then China came along and they increased their profit margin 10 fold, now Dewalt, Makita, Porter Cable and Bosch have all followed suit.

I think Chinas problem is one of credibility, I have several friends who work for companies that moved production (and equipment) to China, in every case within a month of moving to China and starting production there were clones of their product on the market. I mean true clones, parts would interchange with their product. And to a T all found that if they didnt have a company QC guy on site during production runs, then there were "unintended accidental use" of raw material that didnt meet specs. As long as QC was there, the right material was used, if he went home then a random test caught it, oops, seems we "accidently" got a shipment of inferior steel.

I have a compadre who sells medical widgets, they are a manufacturer and have patents on the widget. He spent a month in China visiting potential customers, he said in every case, in every single customer, when he reached the top of the food chain, it was the same guy. And in every case, this guy who worked for different medical companies said, we dont need the product, but let us make it for you. His take is China has a bunch of manufacturing capacity, all controlled by a few people. And those few people are the govt. Anything you let them build, patented or not, is out of your control.
 
I dont think it crosses all spectrums at the start. I think once it becomes evident that there is no alternative, then people just buy what ever is easy.

On another note, I dont think it's a fair example to compare Japan to China. Maybe you could compare perception of Japan of the early 50's to the perception of China today.

Japan decided pretty early on to offer an improved product, they made their mark on Japanese brand names, not on rebadged house brands for the world. Though they did plenty of rebadging, quality was how they made their mark. Sony, Toyota, Honda, Kawasaki, Datsun, Nikon, Pentax, Topcon, Praktica were all brands that made people say wow, this stuff is pretty good. While some are now much smaller or gone, some steam rolled their competition, and they did it with quality and innovation.

Sitting here now, I cant think of a single influential Chinese brand. I cant even think of a Chinese brand. Nothing.

So can China produce high quality that could be called top of class? Sure, no reason they cant. But for them to be taken seriously they will have to distance theirself from the Walmart business model and make their own way.

Two points
I was not comparing Japan to China simply pointing out that my top of the range Olympus micro four thirds camera body had been made in China.
Until perhaps 25 years ago the only Chinese Brand would have been something like "The Democratic Republic of China". What the Chinese have done is buy western companies with a brand reputation see Brock's first post. There were a number of high profile British HiFi companies which were bought by the Chinese, including "Quad".
 
So, as it stands now there is no "exactly the same as made in Germany" but rather a recognized logo on an inferior product.

Mike

This is the way I see it as well. A "euro alpha" that happens to be made in China does nothing but cheapen the brand IMO. I do, however feel that it may be the only way for some of them, mainly Leica Sport Optics, to survive long term.
 
Is the world 'using' the Chinese as much as the Chinese are 'using us?"...

If a particular optic is made in China and it is not up to par, is it the fault of the Chinese or the fault of the company who out-sources out to China?

.

That's a valid point, and IMO, it's the consumer's fault, as the vast majority demand alpha performance at cut rate prices. We will see more of that, especially in the USA, since the liberal retard politicians are ruining the foundation of our country.
 
Two points
I was not comparing Japan to China simply pointing out that my top of the range Olympus micro four thirds camera body had been made in China.
Until perhaps 25 years ago the only Chinese Brand would have been something like "The Democratic Republic of China". What the Chinese have done is buy western companies with a brand reputation see Brock's first post. There were a number of high profile British HiFi companies which were bought by the Chinese, including "Quad".

Sorry, I wasnt pointing that part at you, that was just a general comment on the direction of my thoughts.

Thats kind of what I meant, China hasnt marketed China. They bought companies to get name recognition, Japan built name recognition. Until China develops a marketing mind set they will continue to have to purchase someone elses brand respect.

So far I cant recall a single thing that has been moved to China where quality increased. Cheaper yes, but not better. I think until they take that mindset they will have a hard time getting brand respect.
 
That's a valid point, and IMO, it's the consumer's fault, as the vast majority demand alpha performance at cut rate prices. We will see more of that, especially in the USA, since the liberal retard politicians are ruining the foundation of our country.

No more insulting political references, please. Not everyone shares your politics.
 
brocknroller;2999060. [COLOR="Black" said:
Made in Germany" today can be almost completely produced abroad but given their finishing touches in a German factory. The EU wants that label to be more restrictive: [/COLOR]

Unpopular (with whom?) EU proposal

Brock

Brock

What you say is all too true in Europe but the USA rules about imports and the country of origin on them are, I believe, much tougher.

Great thread BTW.

Lee
 
Let's play this one out…. this is what I see.. a Chinese company purchases Leica Sport Optics, moves production to China and promptly claims that guys named Klaus, Dieter, and Wolf will still be in charge of quality control and personally checking each and every piece before it's boxed. Then, they send the boys (Klaus, Dieter, and Wolf) back to Brazil and commence production of binoculars largely devoid of all things that made Leica…. well, Leica (did someone do something similar to B&L?). Old Leica binoculars are no longer serviced (well, they never really were, but that's another story), and new ones are replaced rather than repaired because it's just cheaper to replace junk with more junk than to have highly trained technicians do the job properly. Leica falls from grace. No one takes Leica seriously. The brand has had the last dollar drained out of it. Sorry Ernst. Take it away Brock….. and Bryce… is it the truck or the driver that stereo modifies?

Okay, I'm bored this afternoon….

Mike
 
Let's play this one out…. this is what I see.. a Chinese company purchases Leica Sport Optics, moves production to China and promptly claims that guys named Klaus, Dieter, and Wolf will still be in charge of quality control and personally checking each and every piece before it's boxed. Then, they send the boys (Klaus, Dieter, and Wolf) back to Brazil and commence production of binoculars largely devoid of all things that made Leica…. well, Leica (did someone do something similar to B&L?). Old Leica binoculars are no longer serviced (well, they never really were, but that's another story), and new ones are replaced rather than repaired because it's just cheaper to replace junk with more junk than to have highly trained technicians do the job properly. Leica falls from grace. No one takes Leica seriously. The brand has had the last dollar drained out of it. Sorry Ernst. Take it away Brock….. and Bryce… is it the truck or the driver that stereo modifies?

Okay, I'm bored this afternoon….

Mike

Leica was on the verge of bankruptcy once already, on it's own.
 
Let's play this one out…. this is what I see.. a Chinese company purchases Leica Sport Optics, moves production to China and promptly claims that guys named Klaus, Dieter, and Wolf will still be in charge of quality control and personally checking each and every piece before it's boxed. Then, they send the boys (Klaus, Dieter, and Wolf) back to Brazil and commence production of binoculars largely devoid of all things that made Leica…. well, Leica (did someone do something similar to B&L?). Old Leica binoculars are no longer serviced (well, they never really were, but that's another story), and new ones are replaced rather than repaired because it's just cheaper to replace junk with more junk than to have highly trained technicians do the job properly. Leica falls from grace. No one takes Leica seriously. The brand has had the last dollar drained out of it. Sorry Ernst. Take it away Brock….. and Bryce… is it the truck or the driver that stereo modifies?

Okay, I'm bored this afternoon….

Mike

Thats pretty much following the American business model, ehhh we just gonna tweak the biz a little but we want to keep the entreperneural spirit. Then they pare down the departments, shortly they decide that the QA department is costing $300.000 a year in salary, so they roll that into shipping, after cutting 1/2 the shipping crew. Then bring in a new CEO who used to head up a bakery who brings over his pencil whippers. 5 years down the road you got plastic bodies using recycled coke bottle prisms and they can sell them to walmart for $19.95 each.
 
The world changed dramatically yesterday folks ..... too bad you missed it!







Chosun :gh:

Yes, exactly. And I think that if we really had access to the country of origin data for all the components of so-called alpha binoculars we would find that they are not all German, Austrian or Japanese. As it is with many other consumer products these days. There is a direct parallel with the Swiss watch industry country regarding honesty about country of origin.

I don't really care how many countries the parts of a binocular were outsourced from. What I care about is whether the brand name company can design good binoculars, run a good assembly line and assure quality products go out the door with good quality control testing.

But for the foreseeable future I think the Chinese companies will continue to do what they are doing right now. Which is to produce higher quality binoculars and components at relatively reasonable prices for other non-alpha brands as well as their own brands. And continue to grab market share.
 
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Brock,

Thanks for this great thread with several interesting insights!

For everybody:

Leica will NOT go East.
They are at this moment extreem succesfull with their camera division (complete growth is in Russia and China) and optics will follow (later on).

Yes, I do believe some Chinese optic manufacturers are able to produce on Zeiss/Leica/Swarovski level, but for them there is no reason to do so. Why spend time in a product that has to be sold for lesser prices when the demand for less quality products is so high that it is much more interesting for them to put their time in producing these articles.

We, on the other hand, want them to make A-fabric quality for "Chinese' prices. Let's keep dreaming!

But still one of the best treads lately Brock.

Jan
 
Sorry, I wasnt pointing that part at you, that was just a general comment on the direction of my thoughts.

Thats kind of what I meant, China hasnt marketed China. They bought companies to get name recognition, Japan built name recognition. Until China develops a marketing mind set they will continue to have to purchase someone elses brand respect.

So far I cant recall a single thing that has been moved to China where quality increased. Cheaper yes, but not better. I think until they take that mindset they will have a hard time getting brand respect.


I've been reading these posts today, and I have not seen this important
thing mentioned.

China is a socialist communist country, the govt. controls everything.
They do not have any independent companies that mfr. and sell products around the world.

Other countries such as Japan, US, and most of the rest of the world, have free enterprise,
capitalism, and so each company is free to do things as they please.

As mentioned above, tell me about a China company that sells products
under its own name worldwide ?

Jerry
 
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I've been reading these posts today, and I have not seen this important
thing mentioned.

China is a socialist communist country, the govt. controls everything.
They do not have any independent companies that mfr. and sell products around the world.

Other countries such as Japan, US, and most of the rest of the world, have free enterprise,
capitalism, and so each company is free to do things as they please.

As mentioned above, tell me about a China company that sells products
under its own name worldwide ?

Jerry

I dont think there is one Jerry, I'd love to know if there is.

I really dont have a problem with Chinese made, hell they goota eat just like everybody else. But I dont think they are a god send to consumers.

Govt manipulation of their currency has probably lowered wages world wide, but we are greedy consumers, until it affects us we dont care. Thats my opinion at least.
 
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