goudoti / goudotii (1 Viewer)

Taphrospilus · Jan 6, 2015

I am wondering where to find evidence that Justin-Marie Goudot died 1848 as written in HBW Alive. I found as well the year 1849 & 1850. As well I found another Etienne Goudot, pharmacien, à Bogota here later négociant, à Paris here. Here from year 1851 it is written ont venues s'ajouter celles plus récentes de Justin Goudot, mort au début d'un nouveau voyage dans ce pays. Here is a little story about Justin-Marie Goudot and Colombia. As well I found "Justin Maria Goudot war zu Honda im Elend zu Grunde gegangen;" which is Justin Maria Goudot died in Honda in misery. But I am absolutley not clear about date of birth and death. All I think the brothers are born in Lons-le-Saunier which I found several times. Any additions to their CV is welcome.

As well Goudot's Explorations in Colombia seems to be interessting.

Taphrospilus · Feb 12, 2017

Maybe small addition on his brother Jules Prosper Goudot also mentioned in the key here.

He seems to be born Lons-le-Saunier/Jura/France. Not sure where the 1803 as year of birth derived from. He died in Madagascar after 1861.

Björn Bergenholtz · Feb 12, 2017

Martin, Maybe you find the answer in this publication (here, unseen by me): BRYGOO, E. R., 1981. Les Goudot, des voyageurs naturalistes bien mal connus. Hist. Nat., n° 17-18 : 37-40.

I guess you´ve seen this one, here (p.7) ... ?

Also see here:

One of the most intriguing collectors described here is Jules Prosper "Bibikely" Goudot, whose nickname – Malagasy for "insect" – denoted his intense interest in bugs. The Malagasy viewed him as a fool and, therefore, ignored him at a time when Europeans in general were held in suspicion. In the mid-nineteenth century he became so immersed in Malagasy culture that he resigned as a collector for a Paris Museum, became fluent in Malagasy, adopted the local customs, and married a Merina woman.

This one could also be worth looking ar: RADAODY-RALAROSY P. 1966 — Mose Bibikely (le naturaliste Goudot) à Tsimbazaza. Bulletin de l'Académie malgache, XLII (1): 15-17.

However; enjoy! And good luck finding him.
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Taphrospilus · Mar 1, 2017

1940. - BOUDOU (R.P.) .- Petites notes d'histoire malgache II. Le naturaliste Goudot. Bull. Acad. malgache, N.S., XXIII. pp. 66-68.

May another helpful source.

Here we can read:

Ausserdem waren in Bogotá François Desiré Roulin für Physiologie und Anatomie, Justin Maria Goudot für Zoologie und James Bourdon für das mit der Akademie zu verbindende National-Museum.

This means he worked for the Museo de Historia Natural in Bogota. This would match with BRYGOO, E. R. p. 34 where we can read:

...recevoir de l'un de mes frères zoologiste au Muséum de Bogota.

P.S. Here is written that he died in Honda.

Taphrospilus · Mar 19, 2017

In David Griffiths and the Missionary “History of Madagascar” p. 891-893 we might as well get more information about Jules and his wife Merina.

Taphrospilus · Apr 11, 2017

Some info I got from Musées de Lons-le-Saunier

Justin Goudot est né le 14.04.1802 à Lons-le-Saunier.
Concernant la date de décès, nous nous basons sur ce document :
http://www.archivesportaleurope.net...RAN_IR_042325/dbid/C349000435/search/0/goudot
qui stipule que le décès est arrivé à Honda le 6 juin 1847.

Pour information, je peux vous citer le travail de Maria Paola Rodriguez-Prada qui a publié récemment :
The creation of the national museum of colombia (1823-1830) : a history of collections, collectors, and museums, Museum History Journal, Vol. 9, N°1, January, 2016, 29-44.

Jules Prosper Goudot est né le 12.12.1803 à Lons-le-Saunier.
Pour son décès, nous nous appuyons sur la publication
BRYGOO, E. R., 1981. Les Goudot, des voyageurs naturalistes bien mal connus. Hist. Nat., n° 17-18 : 37-40
où il est écrit "La Reine morte en 1861, les Européens revinrent à Tananarive. Goudot était-il du nombre ? ..."

So that means:

Justin-Marie Goudot born 14. April 1802 in Lons-le-Saunier, died 6. June 1847 in Honda (Colombia) (in the HBW key 1848)

Jules Prosper Goudot born 12 December 1803 in Lons-le-Saunier. When he exactly died in Antananarivo (Tananarive) or elsewhere is still not clear (could be 1861 or later). P.S. RADAODY-RALAROSY P. seems to be no help either to solve this topic.

It might be worth to read as well The Creation of the National Museum of Colombia (1823–1830): A History of Collections, Collectors, and Museums regarding Justin-Marie Goudot.

Big thank you to Sylvie Deschamps from the museum for providing this information.

Björn Bergenholtz · Apr 11, 2017

To me it looks like today's frequent claim of Justin Goudot's death in "1848" (or later) origins from Mulsant & Verreaux, Histoire naturelle des oiseaux-mouches, (ou, Colibris constituant la famille des trochilidés), vol II, (here) or maybe even more so from (the far more widely read) T. S. Palmer, in The Auk 1918, here (p.241).

Note that Palmer left out the "Après" part!

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Taphrospilus · Apr 12, 2017

Calalp said:
Note that Palmér left out the "Aprés" part!

As a small side step Theodore Sherman Palmer n'est pas français.

But nice to see an Accent aigu in his last name. Anyway his dedication is to find in Notes on the Forms of the Genus Oreortyx Baird.

But from what I understand Mulsant did not really know deep details about Goudot life (but was right with his born in the département du Jura).

Björn Bergenholtz · Apr 12, 2017

Ouups, that Accent aigu (acute accent) was supposed to be a ditto grave and land on "Après"! Not on the well-known Mr. Palmer. I don´t know what happened. Sorry. Typo corrected.

Taphrospilus · Apr 12, 2017

Révérend Père Boudou (alias Adrien Boudou) my post #4 wrote about Goudot:

Voilà donc le pauvre Goudot bouclé, sans doute à la Réunion. Je ne trouve plus de trace directe de lui. Il est certainement revenu après la mort de Ranavalona I, en 1861.

So it seems that he was poor and went therefore to Réunion. Neverheless it looks like he returned to Madagascar after August 16, 1861 the death date of Rabodoandrianampoinimerina (what a name).

Taphrospilus · Apr 17, 2017

If we read here footnote 1...

Il se garder de confondre Justin Goudot avec un des ses frères, également voyageur-naturaliste et qui est mort à Madagascar dans de ses rechereches.

...it looks like Jules Prosper Goudot was dead in 1867 and died in one of his explorations in Madagascar. But unfortunately no concrete date.

Taphrospilus · Apr 20, 2017

In post # 4 I mentioned a James Bourdon. Could that be the author of Considérations sur les animaux en général Jean Baptiste Isidore Bourdon (1796-1861). I ask as I have some doubts about a Jacques Bourdon (1791- ca 1851) mentioned in some other publications. Would somehow fit to an doctor here

ancien chirugien militaire pendant la guerre d'espagne

would as well somehow fit to here where he is called in 1820

élève naturaliste de gouvernement

Taphrospilus · Apr 22, 2017

Forget about my post #12. Unfortnately I am not able to delete any more. After I have seen MUSÉE NATIONAL DE COLOMBIE 1823-1830 there is clear evidence that Jacques Bourdon (1791- ca 1851) was the man in question.

Taphrospilus · May 26, 2017

Taphrospilus said:
his wife Merina.

This is indeed nonsense from me. His wife seems to be Augustine Jolicoeur from Merina ethnic.

Une autre fille de Jolicœur, Augustine, décédée à Taiariarive la 31 Juillet 1845, avait vécu avec Robin, puis elle devint la femme de Goudot (dit Bibikely), ce Goudot qui fut expulsé en 1857 en même temps que Jean Laborde, Clément Laborde, Marius Arnaud et Madame Ida Pfeiffer.

Extract here.

After cross reading several documents I am not even sure if Jules Goudot après 1861 is correct. There is no 100% evidence that he returned to Madagascar after the death of Ranavalona I.. This is just based on speculation as some of the others mentioned persons in my citization returned around this time. He may have even died in Reunion après 1858 (based on a letter to him). In the letter he is called Faralahy-Bibikely. I found Rafaralahy as part of the name. I have the feeling that Goudot was in some relationship with the missionaries of Madagascar as here is written:

A friend later told me that he had never attended a more dismal affair. All the Europeans were invited, except for Mr. and Mrs. Goudot and my son and me. It was strange that we were omitted, for the sovereign frowned upon us for giving a helping hand to Christians in their great adversity and poverty.

Would fit to the fact that père Joseph Webber and père Marc Finaz had to leave the country at the same time as Goudot and the other ones.

P.S. Te mentioned Robin (not a bird at all) seems to be an interesting character in the history of Madagascar (but of course no relevance to bird entomology).

mb1848 · May 26, 2017

Here is a reference to an European named Bibikely in a communication from a missionary proestant francais. page 5 of volume 2.
https://books.google.com/books?id=sHYIAAAAIAAJ&dq=Bibikely&source=gbs_navlinks_s .
"Le P. Malzac a bien entendu parler d'un Européen que les indigènes désignaient autrefois sous le nom de Bibikely, mais il y a des raisons pour penser qu'il ne s'agissait pas de Sivel,qui, lui, a dû passera Tananarive à une époque bien plus..."

Taphrospilus · May 27, 2017

mb1848 said:
"Le P. Malzac

The sentence ended: ...a dû passera Tananarive à une époque bien plus éloignée, certainement avant l'année 1875.

Malsac is Père Victorin Malzac. Unfortunately it is not clear when he talked to the insect (=Bibikely). Nevertheless if this link about him is correct he arrived in La Réunion at 24. July 1862. So we could consider Goudots death 1862 or after.

l_raty · May 27, 2017

Taphrospilus said:
So we could consider Goudots death 1862 or after.

Not necessarily.
The text just says that Malzac had heard about a European which natives, once, used to call by that name. There is no suggestion that he met this European in person, and he appears not even to have known who Bibikely really was, so in principle he could have been around a while earlier.

Taphrospilus · Aug 12, 2020

Today I got a very surprising mail (did not expect it). Jules Prosper Goudot (p. 65) died 14. February 1858 in Saint-Denis de la Réunion

Taphrospilus · Sep 2, 2020

Taphrospilus said:
Justin-Marie Goudot born 14. April 1802 in Lons-le-Saunier, died 6. June 1847 in Honda (Colombia) (in the HBW key 1848)

Meanwhile I am not any more convinced about the death date and place. From both documents attached I would say he married 6. June 1847 in Honda Chatherine Velodore (Last name not 100% sure) and I suppose died 8. May 1849 Charomes (Seine) (not sure about Charomes can't read it completly).

Maybe a case for Laurent to confirm what I read?

l_raty · Sep 3, 2020

Taphrospilus said:
Meanwhile I am not any more convinced about the death date and place. From both documents attached I would say he married 6. June 1847 in Honda Chatherine Velodore (Last name not 100% sure) and I suppose died 8. May 1849 Charomes (Seine) (not sure about Charomes can't read it completly).

Maybe a case for Laurent to confirm what I read?

In the first scan, I think the name of the wife is "Catherine Velosa". (Beware that the writer adds funny, but obviously meaningless curls at the end of some words.) This says indeed that their marriage was celebrated on 6 Jun 1847 in Honda, Province of Mariquita, Nouvelle-Grenade, by a local priest acting as a civil state officer. (And that the act was subsequently transcribed in the register of Paris, 12e arrondissement, on 16 Jul 1850. As you certainly know, the original registers of Paris for the period before 1860 are lost -- they were burned in 1871. I do not find him in the reconstructed documents in the Paris archives.) Marrying and dying on the same day seems rather unusual -- albeit, you never know...

The second scan doesn't report the death of Goudot, but that of a Hippolyte [Maurice ?] Symphorien Robbe, born in Nouvelle-Grenade on 20 Apr 1836, deceased after Goudot in Charonne (Seine), on 8 May 1849, who had apparently been designated by Goudot as a legatee in his holograph will, and who himself had no known heirs. I do not see the date of Goudot's death stated here. (But it seems highly probable that it appears somewhere on one of the immediately preceding pages.)

According to the last portion of the first document, Goudot's holograph will, written in Paris on 15 Jun 1846, appears to have been opened and read on 27 Mar 1848. I would not expect this to have happened before his death.

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