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Old Tuesday 6th June 2017, 16:19   #76
litebeam
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Originally Posted by King Edward View Post
.... Plus ....efforts by the Republicans to stop minority populations voting.
Um.....proof please.

More media-driven propaganda BS.
And if having a valid ID is voter intimidation, then yes, we are (proudly) guilty.
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Old Tuesday 6th June 2017, 16:22   #77
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your football analogy is not really relevant.

I'm not talking about retrospectively changing the rules to change the outcome of a game - I know perfectly well Trump won fair and square according to the election rules.

i'm talking about changing demonstrably stupid rules in the future to prevent a repeat. the US election rules have now repeatedly delivered winning candidates that have been the second most popular (twice in the last 5 elections). Maybe under a popular vote system they'd have won anyway (highly improbable in trump's case in my opinion given the voting patterns), but why take that risk??

now I've no idea how the US would go about reforming it's democratic system to make the choice of president better reflect the will of the voters, but simply shrugging shoulders and saying "the rules are the rules" does not seem a particularly healthy way to approach things. The rules of football have been changed countless times over the years, remember Lampard's "goal" in World Cup 2010? No chance of that happening in WC 2018 thanks to changed rules.

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Old Tuesday 6th June 2017, 18:49   #78
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Plus the main distortion in the system is not popular vote vs electoral college, but the 2 senators / state rather than proportional to population.
True for the Senate, but not for the House of Representatives, which is proportional. I believe that was the founding father's goal: one side is equal by state and one is more population-driven.

However, the House does suffer from the problem of basically biasing towards "city folk," which leaves "rural folk" out of representation in this day and age.

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Plus consideable gerrymandering and efforts by the Republicans to stop minority populations voting.
Now this of course screws-up the works and I just can't quite figure out why it's not illegal; probably some cryptic rules that shouldn't exist.

It's stuff like this that drive the Libertarian part of my views, but "moderate Libertarians" are a rare breed and all the ones I see on my ballots would be worse than Trump in terms of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" and having long-term planning skills. With one pair of exceptions, most are batsh*t crazy.
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Old Tuesday 6th June 2017, 19:30   #79
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Problems with the US system are different because their elections are so much more expensive with effectively unlimited campaign spending - keeping your financial backers happy is more important than keeping your voters happy. Plus the main distortion in the system is not popular vote vs electoral college, but the 2 senators / state rather than proportional to population. Plus consideable gerrymandering and efforts by the Republicans to stop minority populations voting.
All too true, unfortunately. Gerrymandering and voter suppression laws are currently under the purview of the individual states, and can be dealt with legislatively both at that level and at the federal (though the chances of federal involvement under a Republican administration are zilch). The electoral college and 2-senators-per-state rule are written into the constitution which nowadays is virtually unmodifiable, especially in cases such as these where partisan advantage comes into play. The 2-senators rule is particularly egregious, with California, for example, having more than 75 times the population of Wyoming.

And, then, there's the dear-old Supreme Court, the "third branch of government", supposedly non-partisan but actually not and with the Republicans currently in the majority, to which appointments are lifetime. Lifetime appointments made sense in the 18th-century when the constitution was drawn up and when death came early and often even to judicial elites, but make none at all in the context of today's vastly expanded lifespans.

So, there we are, caught between petty-mindedness, chicanery and dishonesty at the state level, and fossilization at the federal. And that, I fear, barring truly stupendous Democratic sweeps in future elections, is where we shall stay for a very long time.
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Old Tuesday 6th June 2017, 19:46   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lowther View Post
your football analogy is not really relevant.

I'm not talking about retrospectively changing the rules to change the outcome of a game - I know perfectly well Trump won fair and square according to the election rules.

i'm talking about changing demonstrably stupid rules in the future to prevent a repeat. the US election rules have now repeatedly delivered winning candidates that have been the second most popular (twice in the last 5 elections). Maybe under a popular vote system they'd have won anyway (highly improbable in trump's case in my opinion given the voting patterns), but why take that risk??

now I've no idea how the US would go about reforming it's democratic system to make the choice of president better reflect the will of the voters, but simply shrugging shoulders and saying "the rules are the rules" does not seem a particularly healthy way to approach things. The rules of football have been changed countless times over the years, remember Lampard's "goal" in World Cup 2010? No chance of that happening in WC 2018 thanks to changed rules.

cheers,

James
You don't like the analogy then use it! Anyway I'm not sure the rules are 'demonstrably stupid' as you suggest - I've not reviewed the origins but presumably the electoral colleges are to add some geographical balances, in the same way that our local constituencies do and as you've acknowledged provide some stability.

cheers, a
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Old Tuesday 6th June 2017, 22:40   #81
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Making ignorance great again--

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/05/o...ore-ipad-share
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Old Wednesday 7th June 2017, 03:07   #82
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I actually don't think side discussions on BUT POPULAR VOTE are all that useful, as it doesn't seem likely the system will be changed anytime soon. Trump won, and it doesn't matter how many votes Hillary got; Electoral votes matter, not raw vote numbers.

However, in a hypothetical reality where popular vote mattered, Trump would have probably have used a different strategy, but if his twitter feed since his election shows anything, he is pretty much incapable of toning down his rhetoric. That edge in popular vote that Hillary got comes heavily from urban leftwing strongholds. I don't see any viable way he could have appealed to those voters.

As for third party candidates never winning because of statements like mine? Mine are grounded in reality. Provide one example in the history of this nation of a third party actually winning the presidency. A quick check on Wikipedia shows that the most electoral votes, taking in account the number available, that a third party won during a presidential election was about 23%, that was in 1860. If your prefer a measure by popular vote, then it's ~27%, and that was in 1912. We have had parties just collapse, but that just results in another party, usually heavily comprised of the politicians from the defunct party, becoming the new second party. Incidentally the last time THAT happened was in the 1850's, when the Whigs disintegrated over differences in opinion over the slavery question.

At local levels sure, third parties can do okay, I won't deny that. Although even then the number of senators and governors who are third party at any given time is vanishingly small.

If you want to change the government, the best approach isn't third party, but simply mobilize folks at the grassroots level to shift your party of choice in the direction you want. That's basically what the Tea Party did with the Republicans, and you can argue this is happening now to a lesser extent in the Democratic Party with Bernie loyal progressives.
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Old Wednesday 7th June 2017, 04:02   #83
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I actually don't think side discussions on BUT POPULAR VOTE are all that useful, as it doesn't seem likely the system will be changed anytime soon. Trump won, and it doesn't matter how many votes Hillary got; Electoral votes matter, not raw vote numbers.

However, in a hypothetical reality where popular vote mattered, Trump would have probably have used a different strategy, but if his twitter feed since his election shows anything, he is pretty much incapable of toning down his rhetoric. That edge in popular vote that Hillary got comes heavily from urban leftwing strongholds. I don't see any viable way he could have appealed to those voters.

As for third party candidates never winning because of statements like mine? Mine are grounded in reality. Provide one example in the history of this nation of a third party actually winning the presidency. A quick check on Wikipedia shows that the most electoral votes, taking in account the number available, that a third party won during a presidential election was about 23%, that was in 1860. If your prefer a measure by popular vote, then it's ~27%, and that was in 1912. We have had parties just collapse, but that just results in another party, usually heavily comprised of the politicians from the defunct party, becoming the new second party. Incidentally the last time THAT happened was in the 1850's, when the Whigs disintegrated over differences in opinion over the slavery question.

At local levels sure, third parties can do okay, I won't deny that. Although even then the number of senators and governors who are third party at any given time is vanishingly small.

If you want to change the government, the best approach isn't third party, but simply mobilize folks at the grassroots level to shift your party of choice in the direction you want. That's basically what the Tea Party did with the Republicans, and you can argue this is happening now to a lesser extent in the Democratic Party with Bernie loyal progressives.
Agree with your views on third parties and on the need for work at the grassroots.

With regard to the popular vote, however, I only partially agree, since in my opinion it continues to be worth bringing up, both as a counter to claims by the right that Trump has a "mandate" for whatever he "pledged" (haha!) to do during in the campaign, and as propaganda for much needed root-and-branch constitutional reform (haha! again but wryly this time since the prospects for that seem very remote indeed at the current juncture).
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Old Wednesday 7th June 2017, 12:10   #84
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Um.....proof please.

More media-driven propaganda BS.
And if having a valid ID is voter intimidation, then yes, we are (proudly) guilty.
Per Curiam
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
NORTH CAROLINA, ET AL. v. SANDRA LITTLE COVINGTON, ET AL.
ON APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
No. 16–1023. Decided June 5, 2017

Easy to find, and the latest in a series going back some time.
MJB
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Old Wednesday 7th June 2017, 15:01   #85
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Originally Posted by litebeam View Post
Um.....proof please.

More media-driven propaganda BS.
And if having a valid ID is voter intimidation, then yes, we are (proudly) guilty.
Sccott Walker did
https://www.wpr.org/former-trump-adv...ed-5-elections
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Old Wednesday 7th June 2017, 15:33   #86
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lol! Roger Stone....
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Old Wednesday 7th June 2017, 15:46   #87
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Per Curiam
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
NORTH CAROLINA, ET AL. v. SANDRA LITTLE COVINGTON, ET AL.
ON APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
No. 16–1023. Decided June 5, 2017

Easy to find, and the latest in a series going back some time.
MJB
On Appeal....'latest in a series'. Fail.
Get back to me with something meaningful. Google is your friend. For all of the brain washing of the media, results will be hard to find.
Why? The left is the party of violence here in the U.S., but our media will protect them because they *are* the left.

I can start with the Black Panthers and their Philadelphia voter intimation in 2008. Wielding billy clubs right at the precinct door.
The left wing media will try to say this wasn't voter intimidation, but any intellectually honest viewer can see otherwise.
If a Republican had done this he'd be the poster child of intimidation.

Of course, laughing stock AG Eric Holder did nothing about it. Surprise!

Busy day at the ranch, and going to try to move on here.
Little respect anyway.
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Old Wednesday 7th June 2017, 17:39   #88
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Gerrymandering has a very long history by both sides. It's common knowledge (unless you live under a rock) this unethical practice/tactic exists.

http://www.charlottemagazine.com/Cha...and-Democrats/

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Old Wednesday 7th June 2017, 17:49   #89
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[quote=Gilmore Girl;3576436]Gerrymandering has a very long history by both sides.

Of course it does and the sooner an end is put to it, the better.
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Old Saturday 17th June 2017, 19:59   #90
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Donald Trump is the author of the book "The art of the deal", but pulled out from Pars deal. I can see some inconsistency.
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Old Saturday 17th June 2017, 21:02   #91
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Donald Trump is the author of the book "The art of the deal", but pulled out from Pars deal. I can see some inconsistency.
His name is on the cover but the actual author is the ghostwriter, Tony Schwartz, who subsequently came to deeply regret he had had anything to do with it.

The following from a long article in the New Yorker (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...r-tells-all)--

“I put lipstick on a pig . . . (and) feel a deep sense of remorse that I contributed to presenting Trump in a way that brought him wider attention and made him more appealing than he is. . .. I genuinely believe that if Trump wins and gets the nuclear codes there is an excellent possibility it will lead to the end of civilization. If (I) were writing 'The Art of the Deal' today. . .it would be a very different book with a very different title: 'The Sociopath'”.
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Old Today, 03:53   #92
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....This election was waged on creating American jobs and keeping foreigners out (note invasive species research not hit too much) - ironic that it took a foreign power to get him through the door....
So...I won't hold my breath waiting for this stupidity to be retracted.
Pure idiocy.
As many of us asserted all along, this "Russia" stuff was an immense crap-burger constructed by Podesta, Brock, et al to dodge the embarrassment of HRC's blistering loss to the 'unproductive spurt'.....

The only collusion with Putin was HRC's uranium deal, and the bigger embarrassment was Obama saying on Oct. 16, 2016 that Russia would be 'no threat' to our election and only an unbalanced person would believe so. Obama told Trump at that time to stop whining about Russia and make the case to the American people for Presidential votes. Gotta sting to be the ex-POTUS watching your 8 year socialist plan deconstructed by a guy you just mocked with no chance to win the election.
And now CNN is openly reamed with the recent hidden camera sting... the anti-Trump conspiracy regarding this Russian garbage. Gotta be tough to be a liberal these days...lies, conspiracy and violence.
Comedy gold, one can't make this stuff up.

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