Nikon centralizes optical engineering (1 Viewer)

PeteQuad · Apr 3, 2017

https://www.dpreview.com/news/53680...ineering-departments-from-across-the-business

On the camera front the comments have mostly been about Nikon's financial issues lately, but I'm wondering if this move to centralization will help with their optics quality, especially with respect to binoculars. I feel their mid-range stuff has been just OK lately and maybe this will move them up the ladder a bit.

etudiant · Apr 4, 2017

Nikon appears to be an optics enterprise with limited marketing savvy.
They make superb optics, but support is a soft spot. The annual Santa wish list from Lens Rentals last year was for Nikon to have a real service department.

Given this perspective, one may be skeptical that this consolidation of Nikon's limited engineering resources will have a material effect. It does not address the primary area of weakness. Maybe Nikon needs to be consolidated with some entrepreneurial Chinese firm which can make more effective use of Nikon's superb engineering and optics skills.

ceasar · Apr 4, 2017

PeteQuad said:
https://www.dpreview.com/news/53680...ineering-departments-from-across-the-business

On the camera front the comments have mostly been about Nikon's financial issues lately, but I'm wondering if this move to centralization will help with their optics quality, especially with respect to binoculars. I feel their mid-range stuff has been just OK lately and maybe this will move them up the ladder a bit.

From the Nikon USA Website:

http://www.nikon.com/news/2017/0403_01.htm

"The information is current as of the date of publication. It is subject to change without notice."

PeteQuad · Apr 4, 2017

For binoculars, I don't think they have anything that stands out from the crowd anymore, except for their name and history. Looking at the Monarch line, I would struggle to recommend them over so many other good choices right now. If people didn't remember Nikon as one of the good names from years past, I think they would sell half of what they do.

So while I agree that they struggle with marketing, even what they are supposed to be good at (optics) doesn't seem so great anymore. I don't know much about their higher end lines - but then I don't see that much discussion about them here either.

ceasar · Apr 4, 2017

I see Nikon's Monarch binoculars around where I live. Most of the Interns working at Hawk Mountain Sanctuary over the years used Nikon Monarch Binoculars.

Cabelas continues to sell Nikon Monarchs in store and by internet sales as do many other big box stores like LL Bean.

Check the Nikon USA website from which you can purchase their binoculars and you will see that different Monarchs are back ordered intermittently. I suspect that Nikon sells many binoculars directly to the public through its website.

You will get as much information, and probably more, from Nikon's website about all of their binoculars than you will from the big internet sellers of binoculars. Very few binocular users go to optics websites like we have here on Bird Forum for binocular information.

Compare the way Nikon's binocular information is set up in a user friendly manner with the websites of Leica, Zeiss and Swarovski.

Troubador · Apr 4, 2017

PeteQuad said:
For binoculars, I don't think they have anything that stands out from the crowd anymore, except for their name and history. Looking at the Monarch line, I would struggle to recommend them over so many other good choices right now. If people didn't remember Nikon as one of the good names from years past, I think they would sell half of what they do.

So while I agree that they struggle with marketing, even what they are supposed to be good at (optics) doesn't seem so great anymore. I don't know much about their higher end lines - but then I don't see that much discussion about them here either.

Wow Pete, that is a bit pessimistic. I am not a Nikon enthusiast myself (by chance my choices have been in other brands) but really if you try a Nikon EDG or Monarch HG you might change your mind. I really don't think you could sustain a 20% share (approx) of the US market as Nikon do, on the strength past glories. And not all business models are based on technical innovation or no-matter-what-cost excellence, doing what is good enough for a higher percentage of the time than the competition ie by being a reliable choice, is also valid. And the Monarch HG and EDG are much better than that.

I might be a Zeiss fan boy (with a soft spot for Meopta, Kowa and GPO) but if I went on a holiday without my own bins and was offered a pair of Nikons to use I would be a happy bunny.

Lee

Canip · Apr 4, 2017

PeteQuad said:
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I don't know much about their higher end lines - but then I don't see that much discussion about them here either.

In my view, there is an explanation for that:
the EDG models suffer from the "VW Phaeton syndrom" (the VW Phaeton is a very good top model of VW but economically a flop for VW: since they are almost as expensive as similar size Audi / BMW / Mercedes cars, people will rather buy one of those more prestigious cars than a "Volkswagen").

Nikon's EDG binos are very, very good (I have alle their x42 models) and in some areas, they beat their European alpha competition (e.g. stray-light suppression, which I tested against SF/HT/EL SV/HD+), but since for little more money you get European alpha models, people will not buy the EDG.

And then there is Nikon's reputation of being bad at service and repairs. While I appreciate that in some countries, service seems to be inferior to other top brands, I have personally had some excellent service experience with Nikon in Switzerland.

jgraider · Apr 4, 2017

Troubador said:
Wow Pete, that is a bit pessimistic. I am not a Nikon enthusiast myself (by chance my choices have been in other brands) but really if you try a Nikon EDG or Monarch HG you might change your mind. I really don't think you could sustain a 20% share (approx) of the US market as Nikon do, on the strength past glories. And not all business models are based on technical innovation or no-matter-what-cost excellence, doing what is good enough for a higher percentage of the time than the competition ie by being a reliable choice, is also valid. And the Monarch HG and EDG are much better than that.

I might be a Zeiss fan boy (with a soft spot for Meopta, Kowa and GPO) but if I went on a holiday without my own bins and was offered a pair of Nikons to use I would be a happy bunny.

Lee

I agree with both of you guys about Nikon. They do make a few decent products, and evidently a couple of standouts in the EDG and new HG. Problem for me is I've dealt with Nikon CS twice now, and it was beyond a joke. And as for marketing? Let's just say that I bet (know) the Tract guys could tell us a few stories while shaking their heads. They are largely irrelevant to me when I consider making a binocular purchase (even though I came across a pair of older 8x32 HG's I could "steal", but backed off).

PeteQuad · Apr 4, 2017

Nikon's Monarch line is OK - I've looked at and through them a few times. But to me, the reason they have a large part of the market share in that price area is because of their name (Nikon) and the fact that every big store carries them.

I am not saying they are worse then the competition, just that they are no different. Some competitors in that space are better and some are worse. This is Nikon we're talking about - I think they should/could be better. If they don't step it up in this increasingly competitive space, the next generation might not care about their name so much.

You tell me, would you recommend a Monarch 7 for ~$500? Compared to all the relative newcomers like Vortex, Opticron, etc. Not to mention the Mavens and Tracts of the world, and the fact that you can get lower end alpha brands?

Their high end stuff may very well be great. I know their lenses can certainly compete with the best out there. I just don't know a lot of people with those lines of Nikon binoculars. Canip's explanation sounds pretty good to me.

jgraider · Apr 4, 2017

Me too PeteQ. I've had over 150 hunters in camp over the past 13 years, and I've never seen the first EDG or Premier binocular show up.

I don't recommend a Nikon anything really. It's like Vortex to me.....always something as good or better for equal or less money.

cycleguy · Apr 5, 2017

My last four Nikon purchases have been EDG, HGL, SE, and EII. None of these can be found at local retail throughout the metro area... which is just wrong. How are people to purchase what they are not aware of or not able to handle??? Seems they are making it hard to purchase their product... so why bother. The Monarch 7 is everywhere and almost got my wallet, but it never did happened.

When I'm out and about, I see most people who are toting a binocular with a Nikon Monarch or Pro Staff. So it appears they are doing ok around here.

FWIW I don't know what it's worth,

CG

ceasar · Apr 5, 2017

cycleguy said:
My last four Nikon purchases have been EDG, HGL, SE, and EII. None of these can be found at local retail throughout the metro area... which is just wrong. How are people to purchase what they are not aware of or not able to handle??? Seems they are making it hard to purchase their product... so why bother. The Monarch 7 is everywhere and almost got my wallet, but it never did happened.

When I'm out and about, I see most people who are toting a binocular with a Nikon Monarch or Pro Staff. So it appears they are doing ok around here.

FWIW I don't know what it's worth,

CG

Well, the HGLs and the SEs have been discontinued for a while and the EIIs are no longer being sold in the USA but can be purchased in Japan and I have no idea why this is. The EDGs cost over $2000.00 and it appears that only the biggest national dealers can afford to keep some of them in their inventory.

Most of the binoculars that Nikon sells in the USA are probably listed in Cabela's website and they would include the Monarchs and Pro Staffs you have seen being carried around.

Nikon also sells a large variety of low cost binoculars like small inexpensive Aculons that might be hard to find but which can be purchased from Nikon's website.

Bob

maico · Apr 5, 2017

PeteQuad said:
Nikon's Monarch line is OK - I've looked at and through them a few times. But to me, the reason they have a large part of the market share in that price area is because of their name (Nikon) and the fact that every big store carries them.

I am not saying they are worse then the competition, just that they are no different. Some competitors in that space are better and some are worse. This is Nikon we're talking about - I think they should/could be better. If they don't step it up in this increasingly competitive space, the next generation might not care about their name so much.

You tell me, would you recommend a Monarch 7 for ~$500? Compared to all the relative newcomers like Vortex, Opticron, etc. Not to mention the Mavens and Tracts of the world, and the fact that you can get lower end alpha brands?

Their high end stuff may very well be great. I know their lenses can certainly compete with the best out there. I just don't know a lot of people with those lines of Nikon binoculars. Canip's explanation sounds pretty good to me.

Who is the largest binocular manufacturer in the World ?

maico · Apr 5, 2017

etudiant said:
Nikon appears to be an optics enterprise with limited marketing savvy.
They make superb optics, but support is a soft spot. The annual Santa wish list from Lens Rentals last year was for Nikon to have a real service department.

Given this perspective, one may be skeptical that this consolidation of Nikon's limited engineering resources will have a material effect. It does not address the primary area of weakness. Maybe Nikon needs to be consolidated with some entrepreneurial Chinese firm which can make more effective use of Nikon's superb engineering and optics skills.

Nikon Europe sell more than Nikon USA and Nikon Japan not far off.
I read through the annual report but couldn't find the sports optics division profit/loss shown separately from the camera division. The significant losses though were from the semi-conductor equipment division.

Troubador · Apr 5, 2017

maico said:
Who is the largest binocular manufacturer in the World ?

What do you mean by biggest? Sells most by money value? Sells most by numbers? Has the most factories or most employees? Or has the biggest most incomprehensible range on sale? :-O

Lee

maico · Apr 5, 2017

Troubador said:
What do you mean by biggest? Sells most by money value? Sells most by numbers? Has the most factories or most employees? Or has the biggest most incomprehensible range on sale? :-O

Lee

Nikon wins in all areas I would imagine. I don't think the senior management would green light these anymore http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/sportoptics/wx/products/features/
They remind me of the enormous 1980's Nikkor 300mm f2 AI lenses. Nobody else has ever made a 300mm faster than f2.8. A sort of vanity project which used the forthcoming Olympics as a reason for their introduction.
They used to sell for circa $12,000 when new and only just over 400 were ever made. Most were later converted to motion picture use and fetch twice that.

Binastro · Apr 5, 2017

I had a few 12inch (305mm) f/2.5 Kodak Aero Ektars. 1940s These are faster than f/2.8.
When new they were fast but the thorium glass become discoloured with time.
Also an 8inch f/1.5 Aero Ektar.
8inch f/1.4 TTH 1950s?
180mm f/1.3 Zoomatar.
They made a Zoomatar 240mm f/1.2
Also Zoomatar 250mm f/1.3.

There was a 14inch (355mm) f/0.75.

I'll have to think about 300mm. But I am pretty sure there are others faster than f/2.

P.S.
Thanks Maico.
I looked at the specs.
I would be interested in the Nikon 10x50 with a 9 degree field.
Unfortunately I couldn't hand hold it now although I had no trouble hand holding the Celestron 20x80 of a similar weight when younger.

PeteQuad · Apr 6, 2017

maico said:
Nikon wins in all areas I would imagine. I don't think the senior management would green light these anymore http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/sportoptics/wx/products/features/
They remind me of the enormous 1980's Nikkor 300mm f2 AI lenses. Nobody else has ever made a 300mm faster than f2.8. A sort of vanity project which used the forthcoming Olympics as a reason for their introduction.
They used to sell for circa $12,000 when new and only just over 400 were ever made. Most were later converted to motion picture use and fetch twice that.

Although I would be surprised if NIkon won in all areas I know they do well in the binocular market. But that is irrelevant - since this is a very knowledgeable crowd here I know we don't determine if a brand is making top notch stuff based on their sales. I honestly felt that it was well understood that Nikon is just so-so in the mid-range segment these days. Like I said, would you would really recommend the Monarchs as a best in class choice? Maybe I'm wrong.

ceasar · Apr 6, 2017

PeteQuad said:
Although I would be surprised if NIkon won in all areas I know they do well in the binocular market. But that is irrelevant - since this is a very knowledgeable crowd here I know we don't determine if a brand is making top notch stuff based on their sales. I honestly felt that it was well understood that Nikon is just so-so in the mid-range segment these days. Like I said, would you would really recommend the Monarchs as a best in class choice? Maybe I'm wrong.

How do you do that?

The best most people can do is make a recommendation of the binoculars they have used in the same mid price range. One can write about what one likes about their binocular and what one doesn't like about it.

In my case, I can personally compare the Monarch 7 8x30 with the much more expensive Swarovski 8x30 CL P and with Zeiss's bottom of the line 8x32 Terra ED. Without going into a detailed review I can state here that, on a cost paid basis, the Nikon 8x30 is the best deal along with also being a very good binocular.

And now with the introduction of the 42mm Monarch HG we find that one of the Monarch line of binoculars just moved above mid-range and into competition with Leica's Trinovid and the Zeiss Conquest. The HG is about a $500.00 jump in price over the 42mm Monarch 7.

I'm afraid that the best we can do in determining what binocular is "Best in Class" is always going to be determined largely by opinions.

Bob

Chosun Juan · Apr 6, 2017

PeteQuad said:
Although I would be surprised if NIkon won in all areas I know they do well in the binocular market. But that is irrelevant - since this is a very knowledgeable crowd here I know we don't determine if a brand is making top notch stuff based on their sales. I honestly felt that it was well understood that Nikon is just so-so in the mid-range segment these days. Like I said, would you would really recommend the Monarchs as a best in class choice? Maybe I'm wrong.

Nikon is a fairly typical large Japanese player. They seem to do chasing dominance really well, but the hunger seems to get dulled by size and regimented tradition once a measure of dominance is obtained. Don't ever expect revolution then, just slow, steady evolution, with status quo market niches well protected and segmented from each other. ie. don't expect any big steps in the low to mid range product line up that would obsolete their flagship offering. Hyper competition it ain't ..... :cat:

The EDG's won't be improved until they have to be, and this will slow the whole chain. Nikon would do well to update the SE and EII lines as well, and listen to the Service complaints across the binocular business and address that more in line with an Alpha brand. Perhaps they are a little lost strategically - never mind, some venerable sensei will be along in due course with a nifty 100 year plan to sort it out ....

Chosun :gh:

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