Full frame query. (1 Viewer)

jalethbridge · Feb 12, 2014

Roy C said:
Exactly right :t:

Without wishing to have this thread descend into yet another "all the gear" monologues, this is the reason why big twitches can be so farcical these days. Every T D & H has a massive bloody camera, and there's a massive scramble and often pathetic behaviour as they all want the money shot. That 99% of them would be incapable of getting that shot is irrelevant, but it means that whereas before I enjoyed the challenge of getting a decent rarity shot as at least I had a chance, these days I will rarely bother as I know I'm on a hiding to nothing - any opportunity I might create is almost always ruined by a dickhead. You then immediately get a wide selection of absolute junk all over birdguides, surfbirds, twitter etc, and then a whole pile of people bigging up the shots saying how great and awesome they are, and so the circle repeats itself, and there's a huge crowd of white-lens toters at the next one, all wasting their time. There should be something akin to a driving test.....

But back to FF. I don't want to spend 4k on a 1DX, and I agree that the next best FF is a 5D3. However even with the addition of a vertical grip, it is not a patch, either in handling or in many aspects of performance, on the older 1.3 cropping 1Dx series. Although the AF is much vaunted, my personal experience is that it is inferior to the 1D series. It has them beat on absolute IQ and clearly on high ISO performance, but as an all-round wildlife camera that performs day in day out and in every situation, it is not in the game, and no amount of pixels is going to change that. When you consider that a used 1D4 and a used 5D3 are not that far apart in price, and a used 1D3 is often a complete mega-bargain, I can't see that there are any difficult choices at all.

However if somebody gave me a choice between a 7D and a 5D3 as a birding camera, I would always pick the 5D3. And then I'd sell it and buy a 1D4. Or more likely a 1D3 and an airfare out of this miserable country.....

Jonathan

MiguelM · Feb 12, 2014

jalethbridge said:
and an airfare out of this miserable country.....

LOL.. even in Portugal it has been raining since december

jalethbridge · Feb 12, 2014

MiguelM said:
LOL.. even in Portugal it has been raining since december

I just came back from Morocco, it was wonderful weather.

Roy C · Feb 12, 2014

jalethbridge said:
Without wishing to have this thread descend into yet another "all the gear" monologues, this is the reason why big twitches can be so farcical these days. Every T D & H has a massive bloody camera, and there's a massive scramble and often pathetic behaviour as they all want the money shot. That 99% of them would be incapable of getting that shot is irrelevant, but it means that whereas before I enjoyed the challenge of getting a decent rarity shot as at least I had a chance, these days I will rarely bother as I know I'm on a hiding to nothing - any opportunity I might create is almost always ruined by a dickhead. You then immediately get a wide selection of absolute junk all over birdguides, surfbirds, twitter etc, and then a whole pile of people bigging up the shots saying how great and awesome they are, and so the circle repeats itself, and there's a huge crowd of white-lens toters at the next one, all wasting their time. There should be something akin to a driving test.....

I fully agree with this which is why I gave up bird photography in the first place over a year ago - now just do birding with a pair of Bins (also a volunteer warden on a RSPB site).
I never used to travel more than 10 miles from home when I was doing bird photography but in the past when there has been a decent bird on my patch I have always found the better photographers are the ones that are most at fault when it comes to getting the shot at all cost (and to the detriment of genuine birders who are satisfied to stay well away with their scopes and bins).
As for the quality of images posted on various photographic sights I would never be so conceited as to call most of it junk - 'live and let live' is what I say besides what is good or bad is subjective - one mans meat is another mans poison . In my experience most that have a go at other folks images are self appointed experts who think that only their images are any good - probably because of some inferiority complex I reckon :-O

Roy C · Feb 12, 2014

jalethbridge said:
But back to FF. I don't want to spend 4k on a 1DX, and I agree that the next best FF is a 5D3. However even with the addition of a vertical grip, it is not a patch, either in handling or in many aspects of performance, on the older 1.3 cropping 1Dx series. Although the AF is much vaunted, my personal experience is that it is inferior to the 1D series. It has them beat on absolute IQ and clearly on high ISO performance, but as an all-round wildlife camera that performs day in day out and in every situation, it is not in the game, and no amount of pixels is going to change that. When you consider that a used 1D4 and a used 5D3 are not that far apart in price, and a used 1D3 is often a complete mega-bargain, I can't see that there are any difficult choices at all.

However if somebody gave me a choice between a 7D and a 5D3 as a birding camera, I would always pick the 5D3. And then I'd sell it and buy a 1D4. Or more likely a 1D3 and an airfare out of this miserable country.....

Jonathan

That is just your opinion - there are many far better bird photographers than you who would disagree with this I am sure :t:

jalethbridge · Feb 12, 2014

Roy C said:
That is just your opinion - there are many far better bird photographers than you who would disagree with this I am sure :t:

Anything anybody writes is an opinion. That's what makes life interesting. As for calling people's images junk.... well I see what you mean re subjectivity, but I've tried constructive criticism a few times and people just don't want to hear it. Possibly it's precisely because of subjectivity, but more likely is that people much prefer "Awesome!" to "Have you thought about x y or z?"

PS There are many things I do have, but unfortunately for the internet, an inferiority complex isn't one of them.

robinsslee · Feb 12, 2014

Roy C said:
I fully agree with this which is why I gave up bird photography in the first place over a year ago - now just do birding with a pair of Bins (also a volunteer warden on a RSPB site).
I never used to travel more than 10 miles from home when I was doing bird photography but in the past when there has been a decent bird on my patch I have always found the better photographers are the ones that are most at fault when it comes to getting the shot at all cost (and to the detriment of genuine birders who are satisfied to stay well away with their scopes and bins).
As for the quality of images posted on various photographic sights I would never be so conceited as to call most of it junk - 'live and let live' is what I say besides what is good or bad is subjective - one mans meat is another mans poison . In my experience most that have a go at other folks images are self appointed experts who think that only their images are any good - probably because of some inferiority complex I reckon :-O

I have the exact opposite experience, but probably I was at the right place and at the right time. Hey ho... o

johnf3f · Feb 13, 2014

Roy C said:
That is just your opinion - there are many far better bird photographers than you who would disagree with this I am sure :t:

+1
Everyone I know of who has tried the 1DX has been delighted or at least extremely miffed that they can't have one, and no you don't have to spend 4k to get a new one.
Inverse Gear Envy?:-O

Weekend Birder · Feb 13, 2014

the black fox said:
i went from 1.6 crop cameras to a 1D3 and find it superb ,the 10mp is a limiting factor slightly but the i/q makes up for it and then some .certainly would not consider going back to a 1.6 crop anytime soon

An interesting comparison between the 7D and the 1D3 here:

http://iwishicouldfly.com/iwishicouldfly/journal/pdfs/Canon%207D%20vs%201D%20Mark%20III.pdf

The 7D has more detail in these tests, but obviously this takes no account of the 1D3's improved tonality, ISO or AF performance.

Of course the 1D3 only has 10MP vs the 5D3's 22MP, so I would expect the 7D vs 5D3 comparison to be in favour of the 5D3. Given the fact that the 5D3 costs twice as much as the 7D that shouldn't be a surprise.

The fact remains that for people who can't afford 500mm or 600mm lenses (or even a 5D3) and have to shoot at longer ranges the 1.6x crop factor of the 7D can be a godsend.

jalethbridge · Feb 13, 2014

johnf3f said:
+1
Everyone I know of who has tried the 1DX has been delighted or at least extremely miffed that they can't have one, and no you don't have to spend 4k to get a new one.
Inverse Gear Envy?:-O

My comments were in reference to FF cameras that were not a 1DX. Ie if the 1DX were completely out of the question (as is the case for the vast majority), what would be next in line?

As it is, the 1D4 does me just fine and I don't see a 1DX necessarily improving my output. And I am also sure I don't use the older camera anywhere near to the fullest of its capabilities, though I do have a rough idea of how it works.

ihleach · Feb 14, 2014

Be interesting to see what the 7D mark ll has to offer, rumoured for release this year

Vectis Birder · Feb 14, 2014

jalethbridge said:
Without wishing to have this thread descend into yet another "all the gear" monologues, this is the reason why big twitches can be so farcical these days. Every T D & H has a massive bloody camera, and there's a massive scramble and often pathetic behaviour as they all want the money shot. That 99% of them would be incapable of getting that shot is irrelevant, but it means that whereas before I enjoyed the challenge of getting a decent rarity shot as at least I had a chance, these days I will rarely bother as I know I'm on a hiding to nothing - any opportunity I might create is almost always ruined by a dickhead. You then immediately get a wide selection of absolute junk all over birdguides, surfbirds, twitter etc, and then a whole pile of people bigging up the shots saying how great and awesome they are, and so the circle repeats itself, and there's a huge crowd of white-lens toters at the next one, all wasting their time. There should be something akin to a driving test.....

But back to FF. I don't want to spend 4k on a 1DX, and I agree that the next best FF is a 5D3. However even with the addition of a vertical grip, it is not a patch, either in handling or in many aspects of performance, on the older 1.3 cropping 1Dx series. Although the AF is much vaunted, my personal experience is that it is inferior to the 1D series. It has them beat on absolute IQ and clearly on high ISO performance, but as an all-round wildlife camera that performs day in day out and in every situation, it is not in the game, and no amount of pixels is going to change that. When you consider that a used 1D4 and a used 5D3 are not that far apart in price, and a used 1D3 is often a complete mega-bargain, I can't see that there are any difficult choices at all.

However if somebody gave me a choice between a 7D and a 5D3 as a birding camera, I would always pick the 5D3. And then I'd sell it and buy a 1D4. Or more likely a 1D3 and an airfare out of this miserable country.....

Jonathan

Your dickhead comment reminds me of being in a hide on a nature reserve once, a Bittern showed, and I mean really showed, walking in the open, and - right at the crucial moment - a bloke with a point-and-shoot shoved me out of the way so he could get a photo, so I missed the shot. Needless to say the Bittern had gone back into the reeds and, even more needless to say, I swore at the bloke who shoved me. because there was no need to shove me at all because there was (just about) enough room for everyone. He was a dickhead indeed. :C

As for full-frame, I have a 6D and I love it. I couldn't stretch to, or justify at the time, a 5D Mk III as much as I'd like one. I also have a 70D. That said, I am getting back into sketching more than photography these days. I got a little disillusioned with it.

johnf3f · Feb 14, 2014

jalethbridge said:
My comments were in reference to FF cameras that were not a 1DX. Ie if the 1DX were completely out of the question (as is the case for the vast majority), what would be next in line?

As it is, the 1D4 does me just fine and I don't see a 1DX necessarily improving my output. And I am also sure I don't use the older camera anywhere near to the fullest of its capabilities, though I do have a rough idea of how it works.

The 1Dx definitely improves my output and it cost less than my 1D4 (though the 1D4 came with 2 batteries) so it's hardly "Out of the Question". The 1D4 is a great camera - the 1DX is just better!

recreationalbirding · Feb 14, 2014

Im currently using a 7D with a 400/5.6 (for birdphoto). I love the combination when the light is right, however that seems not to be the case very often. I can now afford to upgrade the equipment and I am thinking of a 300/2.8 or going for a 1DX with the same lens Im using today. The cost is pretty similar for the lens or the camera. Unfortunately I can not afford both.

How would you guys reason in this case? Which combo would be the better one? 7D+300/2.8 (have a 1.4 TC-iii to couple it with if needed) or the 1DX with a 400/5.6? In short - what is the weakest link in my present setup. The 1.6x-highisopoorresult-camera or the f5.6-lens? Seems as both possible upgrades have lowlight benefits. Any ideas greatly appreciated!

johnf3f · Feb 15, 2014

recreationalbirding said:
Im currently using a 7D with a 400/5.6 (for birdphoto). I love the combination when the light is right, however that seems not to be the case very often. I can now afford to upgrade the equipment and I am thinking of a 300/2.8 or going for a 1DX with the same lens Im using today. The cost is pretty similar for the lens or the camera. Unfortunately I can not afford both.

How would you guys reason in this case? Which combo would be the better one? 7D+300/2.8 (have a 1.4 TC-iii to couple it with if needed) or the 1DX with a 400/5.6? In short - what is the weakest link in my present setup. The 1.6x-highisopoorresult-camera or the f5.6-lens? Seems as both possible upgrades have lowlight benefits. Any ideas greatly appreciated!

Were you looking at a used 300 F2.8 Mk1 or a new Mk2?
Either way it is a difficult choice! I have the Canon 300 F2.8 IS Mk1 and find it to be an excellent lens that will work very well with a Canon 1.4 (Mk2 or 3) extender. It also works well with a Canon 2x Mk3 extender (better than the Mk2 regardless of the camera you use), this would give you 300, 420 and 600mm with af on any Canon DSLR.
On the other hand a 1DX will improve all your EF lenses and the F5.6, of your 400, is largely negated. For reference 1DX files are pretty clean at ISO 8000 and quite useable at 16000, some report higher. It also offers better af, frame rate, build, battery life etc, etc. Note the 1DX will af with your 400 F5.6 + 1.4 extender.
If you struggle for focal length then it may be better to go the 300 F2.8 route, if focal length is not the main criteria then you should have a good look at a 1DX or 5D3.
Another option, if you can stretch to it, would be a used 300 F2.8 IS and a used Canon 1D Mk4 - another very good combination!

recreationalbirding · Feb 19, 2014

John,

Thanks for your detailed reply! I was thinking about the 300/2.8 mk2.

After giving this a lot of thought I have decided to go for the 1dx-option!

/ Eric

johnf3f · Feb 19, 2014

recreationalbirding said:
John,

Thanks for your detailed reply! I was thinking about the 300/2.8 mk2.

After giving this a lot of thought I have decided to go for the 1dx-option!

/ Eric

Well I think you will be very happy with this camera, I certainly am with mine! The main advantages over the 1D4 are that it is even more responsive/fast and the high ISO performance is about as good as it gets.

pimpelmees · Feb 19, 2014

johnf3f said:
Well I think you will be very happy with this camera, I certainly am with mine! The main advantages over the 1D4 are that it is even more responsive/fast and the high ISO performance is about as good as it gets.

but with 1d4 you have 390mm, with 1.4x its 546 mm and with 2x you have 780mm
(with 1dx: 300,420 and 600)

johnf3f · Feb 20, 2014

pimpelmees said:
but with 1d4 you have 390mm, with 1.4x its 546 mm and with 2x you have 780mm
(with 1dx: 300,420 and 600)

I have and use both cameras and the same lens, the 1DX takes priority. This is not to knock the 1D4, it is a superb camera, the 1DX is just better and it's advantages outweigh the lack of the 1.3 crop IMO.

Marcus Conway - ebirder · Feb 20, 2014

For what its worth I switched to a 5D3 at the start of the year. Wish I had done it sooner.

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