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A couple of 7D and 400mm f5.6 questions (1 Viewer)

K

kneonlight

Well-known member
After months of practicing using the 7D and 400mm f5.6 combination I am at the point where I am geting more and more images I am happy with (and more importantly when I am not I know why!).

Anyway there are a couple of issues that I would like advice on.
Firstly at times I would really like more reach. When I crop, unless the shot has been taken in very good light, the image appears quite noisy. To avoid cropping I am thinking of getting a 1.4x converter. Does this seem a good solution? I understand that I will need to use live view to use AF. Is this correct?

Secondly at the other end of the scale at times I am finding birds coming too close to photograph. This is especially a problem for little birds where they either fill too little of the frame so I need to crop (see above!) or they fill the frame but I can't focus because I am too close? Is there any way of reducing the Minimum focusing distance of 3.5m? (or is it a case of using a different lens for small but close birds?)

Thanks in advance :)
 
You could either use live view & a 1.4tc to focus,buy a kenko 1.4dgx which will focus with your set-up.Mfd can be reduced by fitting an extension tube,but doing this will mean a loss of focus to infinity.

Cheers.

Steve.
 
Using an extension tube will certainly help with your close focus issues and they are quite cheap on certain auction sites - just make certain that they support AF and aperture control, have metal mounts - also get a set that is compatible with both EF and EFs lenses. These appear to be the same as mine (which work just fine) under a different brand name:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Metal-TTL...ns_caps_hoods_adaptors_ET&hash=item1e8933f7eb
I modified one of them (with a Stanley knife) so I could use it with extender, see attached image - the modified one is on the left.

You probably realise that you will loose AF with your camera if you put an extender on you lens as it will now be an F8 lens (though LiveView AF will still work). You will also loose some IQ, but not too much if the light is good. Unfortunately the only real solution to your reach problem is either to get closer (not always possible.practical) or move to a lens such as the 300 F2.8 (+ extenders) of a 500/600mm lens - or in other words spend some serious money! Sorry there is no way around it!
 

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John's already answered the closer focus question. A short(est) ext tube is where I'd start if you're not buying a set.

I'd skip the teleconverter. The stop you'd lose not only costs you fast auto focus, it will aggravate the noise problem as, along with the added focal length, you will need even higher ISO settings to maintain adequate shutter speeds. BTW, adequate shutter speeds trump ISO for image quality.

Get closer, set the ISO manually for the conditions, and expose to the right. The latter means to expose towards the bright end (reading the histogram) while staying clear of over exposure (blow-outs). This type of exposure captures more data and shadows show more definition. You can reduce exposure in your RAW converter to bring back to what looks best.

Oh, and you should ALWAYS shoot RAW.
 
The 400/5.6 takes a 1.4x tc very well and Live view AF works well on the 7D although it is slow compared to normal phase AF - one thing that does speed it up alot is by roughly manually focussing before letting the live view AF finish the job. I also always found that with a 1.4x tc it needed stopping down a bit to retain sharpness. The Kenko 1.4x DGX will attempt to AF in normal AF mode but it is not very good when using the center AF points (works reasonably well on outer points).
Attached is a chart which I made up which shows the min/max focusing distance with the 400/5.6 and extension tubes. You need to be aware that extension tubes will limit you max focusing distances as well as decreasing the Min distance.

P.S. I also agree with Kevin re exposing to the right (ETTR) to minimize noise, especially when cropping heavily.
 

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Another thing that should be obvious is whenever possible use a tripod. Or, at least, a monopod. You have two two sources of movement to try to mitigate.
The tripod pretty much eliminates one of them, and technique can help with the subject, as in panning.

To me it's about conservation. You want to use the highest shutter speed that makes sense for the subject, but not at the expense of raising the ISO unnecessarily. I tend to use f6.3 and f7.1 mostly as I think the lens is a tad better with a squint. I also use AV mode to control both ISO and aperture and let the shutter be the variable, but noting what it's doing as I go.

Be patient, experiment, read stuff, and be deliberate about your photography.

Oh, cool little chart there Roy :t:
 
Glen, attached are a couple of shots with the 1.4x tc and 400/5.6 to give an idea of the IQ you can expect - you obviously lose a bit with the tc but are not that shabby - the fine detail you can capture with the 560mm combo beats a lot of bare lenses IMHO. Both these shots were stopped down a tad to f9.
BTW when using a tc and with live view AF I always used a tripod whereas with the bare lens handholding was mostly the order of the day for me.
 

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Thanks for all the advice. Cetainly food for thought!
I didn't realise you could get extension tubes that reduce the minimum focal distance. This is certainly something I will consider for shooting small, close birds.

I just want to clarify something about ISO and shutter speed. In a low light situation is it better to go for a high shutter speed and therefore a high ISO or is it better to try and keep the ISO as low as possible (and therefore have a lower shutter speed)?

For the attached picture or example would I have been better increasing the shutter speed and ISO or lowering them (or doing as I did do which was shoot at 1/500 and ISO 400). The picture has been slightly cropped.

The tc's sound like something I may look into in the future but as I believe my long lens technique is a major area I need to improve on it may be better if I don't introduce them at the moment - especially if they are likely to increase digital noise.
 

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kneonlight said:
I just want to clarify something about ISO and shutter speed. In a low light situation is it better to go for a high shutter speed and therefore a high ISO or is it better to try and keep the ISO as low as possible (and therefore have a lower shutter speed)?

The tc's sound like something I may look into in the future but as I believe my long lens technique is a major area I need to improve on it may be better if I don't introduce them at the moment - especially if they are likely to increase digital noise.
Click to expand...

You should always aim to keep the ISO as low as poss but not to the extend of soft/blurry images because of a low shutter speed (handheld) - in low light a tripod will allow you to shoot at a slow shutter speed and low ISO. A monopod can also help but they are not as good as a tripod IMO.

When using the 400/5.6 and 7D handheld I always adopted a different approach to normal - as shutter speed is the most important factor to getting sharp shots I used Tv mode and auto ISO. That way you get the shutter speed you want and at the lowest possible ISO. Auto ISO works a treat on the 7D for this with the 400/5.6 as it almost always returns a wide open aperture (f5.6) when in Tv mode, this is great for the 400/5.6 as it is pin sharp wide open but for some lenses where you need to stop down this method will not work. What shutter speed you set depends on your hand holding technique, I found around 1/800-1/1000 sec was right for me but may be different for you. Of course for flyers you will need a faster shutter speed.

With regards to using a tc's, providing you use a tripod then increased noise should not be a problem as you can shoot at much slower shutter speeds and still get a sharp shot.

P.S.My two shots above with the 1.4x tc were taken at ISO 1000 and ISO 1250 on the 7D - providing you shoot to the right then noise at these ISO's should not be too much of a problem.
 
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kneonlight said:
For the attached picture or example would I have been better increasing the shutter speed and ISO or lowering them (or doing as I did do which was shoot at 1/500 and ISO 400). The picture has been slightly cropped.
Click to expand...


There are things that we don't know about your workflow to derive this photo.

First thing first, it's a good photo. Well framed, well exposed, good background, subject in action. But, it's not sharp.

You say slightly cropped, so that's probably not the culprit. ISO 400 and 1/500 sounds right.

Have you ever done an MFA (Micro Focus Adjustment) with this lens/camera combo? If not, do it. There's lots of info out there about this and it can be essential.

You alluded that it was your long lens photography that you are dissatisfied with. I assume that means your short lens work is adequately sharp and would tend to support whatever workflow you have been using.

If that is not the case, what kind of file format are you using? If in-camera jpg, what settings? If RAW, what RAW converter, how do you down-res the image for web, how do you sharpen, and a few other Qs come to mind.

Start with the MFA.
 
To kneonlight - pick these guys brains - they have used this lens + camera far more than I have and they will help you get the best out of them.
 
Roy C said:
You should always aim to keep the ISO as low as poss but not to the extend of soft/blurry images because of a low shutter speed (handheld) - in low light a tripod will allow you to shoot at a slow shutter speed and low ISO. A monopod can also help but they are not as good as a tripod IMO.

When using the 400/5.6 and 7D handheld I always adopted a different approach to normal - as shutter speed is the most important factor to getting sharp shots I used Tv mode and auto ISO. That way you get the shutter speed you want and at the lowest possible ISO. Auto ISO works a treat on the 7D for this with the 400/5.6 as it almost always returns a wide open aperture (f5.6) when in Tv mode, this is great for the 400/5.6 as it is pin sharp wide open but for some lenses where you need to stop down this method will not work. What shutter speed you set depends on your hand holding technique, I found around 1/800-1/1000 sec was right for me but may be different for you. Of course for flyers you will need a faster shutter speed.

With regards to using a tc's, providing you use a tripod then increased noise should not be a problem as you can shoot at much slower shutter speeds and still get a sharp shot.

P.S.My two shots above with the 1.4x tc were taken at ISO 1000 and ISO 1250 on the 7D - providing you shoot to the right then noise at these ISO's should not be too much of a problem.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much. I have a monopod at the moment but in low light I feel there is still too much movement so am looking at getting a decent tripod.

By shoot to the right do you mean slightly over exposing?
 
Kevin Conville said:
There are things that we don't know about your workflow to derive this photo.

First thing first, it's a good photo. Well framed, well exposed, good background, subject in action. But, it's not sharp.

You say slightly cropped, so that's probably not the culprit. ISO 400 and 1/500 sounds right.

Have you ever done an MFA (Micro Focus Adjustment) with this lens/camera combo? If not, do it. There's lots of info out there about this and it can be essential.

You alluded that it was your long lens photography that you are dissatisfied with. I assume that means your short lens work is adequately sharp and would tend to support whatever workflow you have been using.

If that is not the case, what kind of file format are you using? If in-camera jpg, what settings? If RAW, what RAW converter, how do you down-res the image for web, how do you sharpen, and a few other Qs come to mind.

Start with the MFA.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I will so an MFA.
The picture was taken hand held (but resting on the hide window) so there could well have been some camera movement.
I shhot in raw and convert to JPEG with DPP. Currently doing a course on Photoshop elements but not using it yet as I am only just beginning with it.

I do not have a short lens so cannot commen on whether that would be sharp but I have noticed when holding the 400mm I am not particularly good at holding it still!
 
kneonlight said:
Thanks very much. I have a monopod at the moment but in low light I feel there is still too much movement so am looking at getting a decent tripod.

By shoot to the right do you mean slightly over exposing?
Click to expand...
I agree that a Monopod is not ideal and a tripod would be much better (I have had a Monopod for years but cannot remember the last time I used it).
Shooting to the right basically means that you expose as much as you dare without actually 'blowing' the highlights - ETTR means to the right hand side of the histogram. If you underexpose and then push (brighten) in processing you will increase any noise especially in the shadow areas. Not only noise but ETTR also gets the best out of the sensor in terms of Dynamic range (around 80% of the colour tones are contained in the brightest 20% of an image so the last thing you want to do is to miss out on these tones by underexposing).
With birds I always aim the slightly 'clip' the brightest part of the bird (RAW will allow you to pull back around a 1/3rd of a stop in processing no problem), often this means that other parts of the image like bright sky... will be overexposed but that is the price you pay for having a well exposed bird, by using selective processing on just these overexposed parts you can usually make them a lot better.

BTW there are holding holding techniques available on the web if you look - the main points are that you stand with your legs in comfortable/stable position, hold the lens up near the hood with your left hand and most importantly keep both your elbows tucked into your body, make sure you gentle but firmly squeeze the shutter button instead of stabbing at it.
 
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Personally I don't think a 1.4 extender is going to help your noise issues.

Assuming you can get it to work you will have a large bird in the frame. In cases where you have already lowered the shutter speed to the minimum acceptable for sharp images then you are going to need to increase ISO by 1 stop. This will probably offset by about the same amount of the noise that would have been increased by cropping more.

Now the benefit of the extender will be having more detail.

Perhaps you could share with us at what iso and how much cropping is where you have issues. Personally with a good noise reduction workflow ISO 1250 and cropping 50% in each direction should work if exposed right on or slightly to the right.
 
Roy C said:
I agree that a Monopod is not ideal and a tripod would be much better (I have had a Monopod for years but cannot remember the last time I used it).
Shooting to the right basically means that you expose as much as you dare without actually 'blowing' the highlights - ETTR means to the right hand side of the histogram. If you underexpose and then push (brighten) in processing you will increase any noise especially in the shadow areas. Not only noise but ETTR also gets the best out of the sensor in terms of Dynamic range (around 80% of the colour tones are contained in the brightest 20% of an image so the last thing you want to do is to miss out on these tones by underexposing).
With birds I always aim the slightly 'clip' the brightest part of the bird (RAW will allow you to pull back around a 1/3rd of a stop in processing no problem), often this means that other parts of the image like bright sky... will be overexposed but that is the price you pay for having a well exposed bird, by using selective processing on just these overexposed parts you can usually make them a lot better.

BTW there are holding holding techniques available on the web if you look - the main points are that you stand with your legs in comfortable/stable position, hold the lens up near the hood with your left hand and most importantly keep both your elbows tucked into your body, make sure you gentle but firmly squeeze the shutter button instead of stabbing at it.
Click to expand...

Brilliant. Thanks Roy. I hope you don't mind me constantly asking questions but I have learned so much from doing so on this forum.
 
BodyResults said:
Perhaps you could share with us at what iso and how much cropping is where you have issues. Personally with a good noise reduction workflow ISO 1250 and cropping 50% in each direction should work if exposed right on or slightly to the right.
Click to expand...

Wow? Really?? I am getting noise or lack of sharpness issues in almost every shot where the ISO is above 320 or where I crop by more than about 10-20%. The only exceptions are when I can get shutter speeds of 1/2000+

Part of the issue is probably my lack of skills in post processing. I am shooting in RAW and apart from a little sharpening in DPP am not doing much else post processing wise. I am doing a photoshop elements course at the moment so hopefully this will help. If I could shoot at ISO of 1250 and crop 50% and still have a good shot I would be thrilled!

Someone earlier mentioned doing a Micro Focus Adjustment which I will try and do this weekend if it ever stops raining!

I have come to the conclusion that before I get any extenders etc I need to master the equipment I already have (or at least get better with it!)

The attached photo was taken at 1/500 f7.1 and on a tripod. It has been cropped 40-50% and sharpened using DPP only. Is this the level of sharpness, quality etc you would expect for these settings?
 

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kneonlight said:
The attached photo was taken at 1/500 f7.1 and on a tripod. It has been cropped 40-50% and sharpened using DPP only. Is this the level of sharpness, quality etc you would expect for these settings?
Click to expand...
There is defo something wrong here, it looks as if it was bad(ish) light but at these setting with only a 50% crop the image should be way better than this (and it f7.1 it should be sharp as tack. Not sure what is going wrong can you attach the full EXIF info as it seems to be stripped (e.g use 'Save as' and not save for for the web).
 
Just had a thought - you are not using a filter are you??? if so take it off and bin it. I have seen this type of thing before when using cheap(ish) filters on long lenses
 
Hi. I'm not using any filters. When I did save as it only gave me the option to save as a CR file which I can't post on here. Only other option was convert and save which is what I did before so I have copied and pasted info below.

File Name IMG_1102.CR2
Camera Model Canon EOS 7D
Firmware Firmware Version 2.0.5
Shooting Date/Time 09/04/2014 14:30:46
Owner's Name
Shooting Mode Aperture-Priority AE
Tv( Shutter Speed ) 1/500
Av( Aperture Value ) 7.1
Metering Mode Evaluative Metering
Exposure Compensation 0
ISO Speed 250
Auto ISO Speed OFF
Lens EF400mm f/5.6L USM
Focal Length 400.0mm
Image Size 5184x3456
Image Quality RAW
Flash Off
FE lock OFF
White Balance Mode Auto
AF Mode AI Servo AF
AF area select mode Manual selection
Picture Style Standard
Sharpness 3
Contrast 0
Saturation 0
Color tone 0
Color Space sRGB
Long exposure noise reduction 0:Off
High ISO speed noise reduction 0:Standard
Highlight tone priority 0:Disable
Auto Lighting Optimizer Disable
Peripheral illumination correction Enable
Dust Delete Data No
File Size 23566KB
Drive Mode High-speed continuous shooting
Live View Shooting OFF
Satellite signal status
Latitude
Longitude
Altitude
Geographic coordinate system
Camera Body No. 1161914389
Comment
 
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