Looking for argentatus and argenteus Herring Gull primary patterns (1 Viewer)

Birdspotter · Feb 5, 2006

Hi all,
Whilst looking at the local Gull flocks this winter I have really got into looking for and differenciating between argentatus and argenteus Herring Gulls.
What I want to work out is what percentage of Herring gulls are argentatus, the dark mantled northern birds showing lots of white in the primarys are no problem its the more paler mantled southern populations that are causing me problems.
In Gulls theres a plate(p27) on wing tip patterns showing 5 argentatus and only one argenteus yet some of the birds i looked at today showed none of the characters on this page.
For example two of the birds showed a large white tip to p10 with a narrow black band across it, reading the text Olsen says that some argentatus show this pattern, clearly then more than 5 wing tip patterns occur, but what about argenteus the plate only shows one surely they have more patterns than this.
Are there any good web sites showing only wing tip patterns on offer ?
cheers
ps had two argentatus Herring Gulls at Musselburgh this afternoon feeding a 1st w, lots of begging and food regurgitation going on,dont think I have seen this behaviour in February before.

JANJ · Feb 5, 2006

Hi Birdsp,

I haven´t seen the one you ask for, like this one:

http://www2.ups.edu/biology/museum/wings_Laridae.html

maybe something here, but only one image, there might be more?

http://home.hetnet.nl/~rjbuijs/

Otherwise here is a good one for argentatus:

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/ind_hg.php

As you can see in Gulls, there´s much overlap between argentatus and argenteus, dark argentatus with wing tip pattern similar to argenteus, and the other way around.
I would say that it´s pretty difficult to assign some Herring Gulls to either one of the two. Usually argentatus is darker with later moult, northern argenteus may differ, being later than southern ones.
If I come up with anything new, I´ll let you now!

JanJ

JANJ · Feb 6, 2006

Birdspotter,
Forgot to mention the excellent article in Dutch Birding (26: 151-179, 2004) Identification of adult American Herring Gull by Peter Adriaens & Bruce Mactavish.
There are som nice wing tip photos, also of argentatus/argenteus.
And while you´re at it, you might as well purchase Dutch Birding (26: 1-35, 2004)
Identification of American Herring Gull in a western European context by Pat Lonergan & Killian Mullarney. Both a good catch!

JanJ

Birdspotter · Feb 6, 2006

Hi Janj,
Thanks for all your help yet again.
In one of your links there was an argentatus that I had mentioned earlier,all white p10 with thin black line across it near to tip, so it was good just to sort that out.
Might just take your advice on Am Herring gull ID in Dutch birding as a regular visitor to the Hebrides.

Can or do argenteus show a dark mantle as in argentatus, or is it any bird showing a darker mantle will be an argentatus ?
Cheers

JANJ · Feb 6, 2006

"Can or do argenteus show a dark mantle as in argentatus, or is it any bird showing a darker mantle will be an argentatus" ?

I wouldn´t count on it. According to Kodak Grey Scale (GULLS) argentatus is (4)5-7(8), while argenteus is 3-5,5 (michahellis 5-7 (lacking bluish tinge). So argentatus is darkest in the Northern populations, and palest in Atlantic Western Europe, which means that the latter populations would match argenteus in palnes, so overlap there. Generally speaking, argentatus in the north is darkest and has less black in wing tip, often with no black on p5/6, southern argentatus (E Baltic), slightly paler, and more often with black on p5, as in argenteus which is generally paler with more black on wing tip, and generally with a white mirror on p10 (generally all white tip on
argentatus).
This only being a superficial explanation, because one can throw one self in to measurements, white tongues, black markings on outer web only, or shaped like a w or a solid band on p5 and so on...
Last but not least, there´s judging grey tones in different light, but you know all that.
JanJ

Edward woodwood · Feb 6, 2006

can't add much to Jan's posts...

it's a clinal thing birdie

there will be a % of birds (possibly quite high in some parts) that are in the 'overlap' zone. Clines don't alway work in the same direction and while there's a cline basically south-west to north-east re mantle colour, i think it's entirely possible that clines in other features can run in different directions.

you ought to be able to pick out a good deal of northern bird form our stock though, on prim length, moult, mantle, head streaking etc. It's certainly possible at gull roosts like Ogston in Derbyshire

I hope to see a few of those East Baltic birds next week Jan..., I'll take my notebook!

Tim

JANJ · Feb 6, 2006

Long time since I read this one:

http://www.gla.ac.uk/~gbza22/scand1.html

Here´s some Herrings from Finland. It´s most in finnish but the images are good!
Notice the first bird in the 1cy autumn -winter section has renewed some wing coverts to 2nd generation, which Herring is not suppose to do as 1cy, unlike michahellis and cachinnans. But never a rule without an exception! It´s not a common thing though, and could be considered as very rare, but it happens.

http://www.elisanet.fi/antero.lindholm/public_html/lokki/argentatus.htm

Tim, good thing with the notebook.

JanJ

Birdspotter · Feb 7, 2006

Cheers guys, lots of looking at web sites, magazines and more importantly birds themselves over the remaining winter months ahead. :t:

Birdspotter · Feb 12, 2006

Hi Guys,
heres a wing shot of a dead Herring Gull taken yesterday in East Lothian.
I suspect its an argentatus showing a thayeri type pattern.

any thoughts ?
cheers

JANJ · Feb 12, 2006

Birdspotter, nice one.

P9 should have been visible, but looks like it is quite an ordinary patterned argentatus from the S.Scandinavia, which could be matched by some argenteus, or intergrades, mirror on p9 small and mainly on outer web. A small spot on the outer web on p5. The Thayeri type pattern is more like this, http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/hg/ad_13.php. Notice the pattern on p10, 9, 8 with black mostly on the outer web with pale tongues eating into primary tips, and joining the white mirror on p9, like the Thayer´s Gull above the American Herring Gull here:

http://www2.ups.edu/biology/museum/THGU-HEGUwing1.jpg.

and this one:

http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/55417247

JanJ

Birdspotter · Feb 12, 2006

JANJ said:
Birdspotter, nice one.

P9 should have been visible, but looks like it is quite an ordinary patterned argentatus from the S.Scandinavia, which could be matched by some argenteus, or intergrades, mirror on p9 small and mainly on outer web. A small spot on the outer web on p5. The Thayeri type pattern is more like this, http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/hg/ad_13.php. Notice the pattern on p10, 9, 8 with black mostly on the outer web with pale tongues eating into primary tips, and joining the white mirror on p9, like the Thayer´s Gull above the American Herring Gull here:

http://www2.ups.edu/biology/museum/THGU-HEGUwing1.jpg.

and this one:

http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/55417247

JanJ

Hi Janj,
yes p9 was a bit of a pain, didnt notice the mistake untill I got home.
I agree with you totally on what you have said above, from looking at your links and the Gulls book I can see now that the pale tongues of a thayeri type do eat into the primary tips thus isolating the black on each primary.
I also realise from studying Olsen more closely that it resembles an argentatus from S Scandinavia, perhaps I should have read a bit more before posting, but then again I've learned something new.
So we now have a gull showing a wing pattern of an argentatus from S Scandinavia found dead within the argenteus range, some of which could show a similar pattern, is this then safe to say its definatly an argentatus ?
Personally I dont think it is without some other evidence, such as mantle colour using the Kodak scale perhaps,even then there is overlap between southern argentatus and argenteus as you explained earlier.
Only wish my knowledge on Gulls was half as good as yours Janj,

cheers.

London Birder · Feb 12, 2006

excellent thread and comments ...

just a question ... are Scottish breeders always considered to be pure argenteus or are there any breeding intergrade types? do Scottish argenteus show any clinal features toward argentatus?

Birdspotter · Feb 12, 2006

London Birder said:
excellent thread and comments ...

just a question ... are Scottish breeders always considered to be pure argenteus or are there any breeding intergrade types? do Scottish argenteus show any clinal features toward argentatus?

Hi LB,
An excellent question.
This actually cropped up in my mind also, I am due to spend a week on the Isle of May in the breeding season so I will be paying great attention to the islands breeding population and hopefully answering the question I also had in my mind.
I might even try to persuade the ringers in the party to focus their attention away from all those lovely passerines, but I wont hold my breath :'D
As far as I am aware I know of no studies of wing patterns within breeding argenteus in Scotland or Britain for that matter.

Wouldnt it be great if there was a web site showing all the known primary patterns in each european country, not just of Herring but all European breeders and vagrants.

Birdspotter · Feb 13, 2006

Thought you might all like to see this argentatus I took at Musselburgh a couple of years back.
Although its of a perched bird with a closed wing, the dark mantle along with the large amount of white on the primaries are evident.
This bird I suspect is from further north than the last individual, although I never noted the exact wing pattern whilst in flight perhaps this bird might have been a better candidate for a thayeri type wing pattern.

London Birder · Feb 13, 2006

good luck for Isle of May, be interested to hear what you discover ...

your Musselborough bird puts me in mind of many (showing similar amounts of white in wing) I saw at Fraserburugh a few years back, like you however, I never noted in flight wing tip pattern

Birdspotter · Feb 13, 2006

London Birder said:
your Musselborough bird puts me in mind of many (showing similar amounts of white in wing) I saw at Fraserburugh a few years back, like you however, I never noted in flight wing tip pattern

I take it because you were too engrossed in a much rarer Larid perhaps ?
Happy memories of watching a Ross's Gull there for me :t:

London Birder · Feb 13, 2006

Birdspotter said:
I take it because you were too engrossed in a much rarer Larid perhaps ?
Happy memories of watching a Ross's Gull there for me :t:

not that good unfortunately, but tonnes of Scandy HG's and five Iceland's together

JANJ · Feb 13, 2006

Hi Birdspotter.
Looks good.

The last gull here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/polen2/argentatus5cy.html

btw, have you seen this?

http://newssearch.looksmart.com/p/articles/mi_qa3793/is_200207/ai_n9133421

JanJ

AStevenson · Feb 13, 2006

Callum,

I didn't know you were quite so keen on gulls - you really should look at them when you are on Barra or come over to the Hebs in the next month or so - all manner of interesting beasties here to look at - several grotty imm argentatus at the weekend and a strange 2nd cal yr bird which looked quite a good candidate for a michahellis, but I'd need another look at it. Good westerly gales forecast this week so hopefully a few white-wingers and big dark herring gulls! Must have a closer look at breeding birds here to see about wingtip patterns - haven't seen any dark backed birds though that would stand out as argentatus in summer.

Cheers,
Andrew

Birdspotter · Feb 13, 2006

London Birder said:
not that good unfortunately, but tonnes of Scandy HG's and five Iceland's together

Sounds a great day, I think in a British context its hard to beat going along to a decent harbour and finding white wingers.
One of my local harbours Port Seton flattered to deceive and after nearly 20 years of checking it every winter I still had no white wingers.

My work in the building trade saw me in a house opposite the harbour one year, imagine my surprise when one day whilst sitting down on the living room floor about to eat my piece I looked out to see a 3rd summ Glaucous Gull flypast.
A quick dash outside throw my pieces in the air and enjoy crippling views, then realising youve no food and no money just as the first stomach rumble starts.
Starved to death that day but worth every moment.

The type of Scandi Herring Gull that I last sent gives me a real buzz also, dont know why they just do.
cheers

Looking for argentatus and argenteus Herring Gull primary patterns (1 Viewer)

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