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Swedish Gull (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Dermot Breen
- Start date
Edward woodwood
Member
yuk
the pale head and breast, scap pattern and tertials point to a Yellow-legged for me
but i'm far from sure as there doesn't appear to be any barring on the tertials etc
Tim
the pale head and breast, scap pattern and tertials point to a Yellow-legged for me
but i'm far from sure as there doesn't appear to be any barring on the tertials etc
Tim
JANJ
Well-known member
Immediate reaction is Caspian, but theres Yellow-legged feel to the bill, a bit short for Caspian, and maybe to much curve to the bill tip, and strong gonys angle, although gonys matched by some Caspian (males) Tertials looks Caspian, without any notching and white tips not reaching tertial base, but could be mached by some Yellow-legged. Caspian with it´s long primary projection (usually a bit longer than YLG) isn´t seen here because of angle Without going to much in to plumage details I´l be tempted to call it a Caspian, with a possibility of it being a Yellow-legged! I suppose you don´t have some more images? Taken today at Simrishamn, where I have been many times watching gulls, I looked to see if there where any other images, but no. It´s a rare occasion not being able to pinpoint a Caspian, in such good images or a Yellow-legged for that matter. More images!
JanJ
JanJ
Hi Dermot
Always tricky with these two, and this one's trickier than most. Even though it doesn't give the immediate Caspian feel I still think it's most likely a cachinnans. The rather rounded head and short bill, together with the overall dumpy, un-rangey structure, suggests female to me. The gonys isn't at all extreme for Caspian. Yellow-legged would (should) show a more bulbous bill with stronger gonys; longer wings; and a squarer head profile with a flatter crown. Yellow-legged is more reminiscent of a small Great Black-backed in impression and I don't get that feel with this bird.
Having said all that I've also got lingering doubts like JanJ. The jizz isn't typical of Caspian at any rate, though it's tricky to judge from just a couple of pics. An image of the upperwing and tail pattern would be good if you've got them, as would more pics of the bird at rest. Let's also remember that there's the spectre of hybrid Caspian x Yellow-legged out there!
Rgds
Greg
It might be worth explaining why it's not a Herring Gull! The extensively moulted first-winter mantle and a few newly moulted coverts mean at this time of year that it has either to be a Caspian or Yellow-legged. First-year Herrings are still in juvenile plumage at this time.
Always tricky with these two, and this one's trickier than most. Even though it doesn't give the immediate Caspian feel I still think it's most likely a cachinnans. The rather rounded head and short bill, together with the overall dumpy, un-rangey structure, suggests female to me. The gonys isn't at all extreme for Caspian. Yellow-legged would (should) show a more bulbous bill with stronger gonys; longer wings; and a squarer head profile with a flatter crown. Yellow-legged is more reminiscent of a small Great Black-backed in impression and I don't get that feel with this bird.
Having said all that I've also got lingering doubts like JanJ. The jizz isn't typical of Caspian at any rate, though it's tricky to judge from just a couple of pics. An image of the upperwing and tail pattern would be good if you've got them, as would more pics of the bird at rest. Let's also remember that there's the spectre of hybrid Caspian x Yellow-legged out there!
Rgds
Greg
It might be worth explaining why it's not a Herring Gull! The extensively moulted first-winter mantle and a few newly moulted coverts mean at this time of year that it has either to be a Caspian or Yellow-legged. First-year Herrings are still in juvenile plumage at this time.
Last edited:
Edward woodwood
Member
I harboured thoughts of Yellow-leg cach as well Greg, esp head shape. The stance isn't normal etc but it is only one photo and impossible to judge - the tertails without terminal barring is perhaps as a result of wear.. The bill doesn't look long enough or parallel-sided enough really either but maybe that's due to angle etc? maybe a bit lightweight overall for a Yellow-leg mich? Can't really make out greater covs but they look a bit better for a mich without the dark, light dark cach typical pattern
Dermot Breen
Well-known member
Hi lads
Thanks for all suggestions so far. When I first picked up the bird I immediately thought it must be a Caspian on plumage but as several of you have alreay suggested the whole jizz/structure of the bird doesn't seem to fit Caspian. It hadn't particularly long legs, primaries or bill for that matter. I can see why some are suggesting Yellow-legged but I can't say it gave that impression in the field. I've added a few more bad shots (the zoom button of the Coolpixs is broken at the moment!). Suppose its one that got away. Still need Caspian (thats what I was doing there in the first place!) so obviously don't have much experience with them or Yellow-legged either for that matter.
Thanks
Dermot
Thanks for all suggestions so far. When I first picked up the bird I immediately thought it must be a Caspian on plumage but as several of you have alreay suggested the whole jizz/structure of the bird doesn't seem to fit Caspian. It hadn't particularly long legs, primaries or bill for that matter. I can see why some are suggesting Yellow-legged but I can't say it gave that impression in the field. I've added a few more bad shots (the zoom button of the Coolpixs is broken at the moment!). Suppose its one that got away. Still need Caspian (thats what I was doing there in the first place!) so obviously don't have much experience with them or Yellow-legged either for that matter.
Thanks
Dermot
Attachments
JANJ
Well-known member
Hi all!
I´m still hesitant to whether this is CG or YLG. In fact I don´t like it at all. If the bill had been longer (it´s always the bill, isn´t it) I wouldn´t have had any problems calling it a CG! We tend to have quite an established idea how the Caspian bill should look like, long, slender, pencil like, paralell-like with weak gonys angle and a gentle curved tip to upper mandible. Mostly they do look like that, but not always! Male is bigger than female, which reflects the bill size as well, and gulls vary!
A YLG, not such an obvious "mask" around the eye, and notice the steep curve to upper mandible tip:http://www.microbirding.se/solvesborg/bild.asp?id=135.
This CG:http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=1031
has a bill that looks a bit like the subject bird. So not sure, again, want to see spread wing and tail pattern.
JanJ
I´m still hesitant to whether this is CG or YLG. In fact I don´t like it at all. If the bill had been longer (it´s always the bill, isn´t it) I wouldn´t have had any problems calling it a CG! We tend to have quite an established idea how the Caspian bill should look like, long, slender, pencil like, paralell-like with weak gonys angle and a gentle curved tip to upper mandible. Mostly they do look like that, but not always! Male is bigger than female, which reflects the bill size as well, and gulls vary!
A YLG, not such an obvious "mask" around the eye, and notice the steep curve to upper mandible tip:http://www.microbirding.se/solvesborg/bild.asp?id=135.
This CG:http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=1031
has a bill that looks a bit like the subject bird. So not sure, again, want to see spread wing and tail pattern.
JanJ
Ghostly Vision
Well-known member
Despite the bill, given the additional photo's, I'd say it has a feel of Caspian.
GV
GV
jforgham
Birding for fun
Immediate thought, even before clicking on the thumbnail for larger view, was Caspian and I shall stick with that now I have enlarged it. True, some things don't fit exactly, but then with gulls how often do they? Looks in stance, head and general posture like Caspian. Can't really say why, just a feeling
Jono
Jono
JANJ
Well-known member
Just for fun, some very good images of Caspian and a few Yellow-legged.Have you seen these?
http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/tre2004/index.html
JanJ
http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/tre2004/index.html
JanJ
stuart winter
My Eyes Have Seen the Glory of the Cups at WHL
Just to throw my hat into the ring.I think the tertial pattern is in keeping with Caspian. Tertials on both sp. are highly variable, with the general rule of thumb being that there is more contrast on Caspians.
I think the lankiness of the pictured bird, an effect caused by the length of the tibia, may lean towards Caspians. I've not looked up the biometrics, but in the field the distance between the "knee" and body on Caspians appears longer than Yellow-legged.
I think the lankiness of the pictured bird, an effect caused by the length of the tibia, may lean towards Caspians. I've not looked up the biometrics, but in the field the distance between the "knee" and body on Caspians appears longer than Yellow-legged.
JANJ
Well-known member
If we are to talk about biometrics, Caspian has on average a longer tarsus comp. to Yellow-legged (michahellis), but there is overlap! (males longer than females). The tibia often gives the impression of being longer, or more visible on Caspian, but you also se it sometimes on Yellow-legged. The slender (thin) legs though are characteristic for Caspian! The occasional Caspian don´t live up to that. There is much variation in jizz, and certain male Caspian stands out, looking like big brutes, or even like a different species, comp. to females. The curve on upper mandible tip, steep on Yellow-legged, flatter on Caspian, is usually a good character, along with a less pronounced gonys angle. It´s never the less a combination of characters that would settle the ID for sure. It must be stressed that the odd individual will appear, which can´t be identifyed, or at best takes some time to ID. Yellow-legged is sometimes more tricky. On the above gull I prefer to be not sure, even if I´m pro-Caspian.
http://www.digiscoping.se/fotosidorLarus/micha_1avdr_1.htm
http://www.digiscoping.se/fotosidor/medelhavstrut.htm
http://www.digiscoping.se/fotosidorLarus/micha_1avdr_2.htm
http://www.digiscoping.se/fotosidorLarus/micha_1avdr_3.htm
http://www.digiscoping.se/fotosidorLarus/micha1k.htm
Legs:http://www.digiscoping.se/fotosidorLarus/cachinnans_1vdr.htm
http://www.xs4all.nl/~calidris/caspianjuv.htm
http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=806&show_thumbnails=False
JanJ
http://www.digiscoping.se/fotosidorLarus/micha_1avdr_1.htm
http://www.digiscoping.se/fotosidor/medelhavstrut.htm
http://www.digiscoping.se/fotosidorLarus/micha_1avdr_2.htm
http://www.digiscoping.se/fotosidorLarus/micha_1avdr_3.htm
http://www.digiscoping.se/fotosidorLarus/micha1k.htm
Legs:http://www.digiscoping.se/fotosidorLarus/cachinnans_1vdr.htm
http://www.xs4all.nl/~calidris/caspianjuv.htm
http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=806&show_thumbnails=False
JanJ
JANJ said:
Agree with JanJ. Both species can look long legged (Caspian generally more so) and in this they overlap. A key feature for me is the thickness of the legs. Caspian often - but not always - shows very spindly legs with knobbly knees. Some individuals can look like they're almost standing on stilts. My experience of Yellow-legged is that the legs are usually more or less equivalent in thickness to Herring Gull. The bird in Dermot's pictures looks to have fairly thin legs. Again, I agree the bird fits best as Caspian on a suite of characters but can Yellow-legged be ruled out?
Rgds
Greg
JANJ
Well-known member
Couldn´t help myself, talking of spindly legs.
http://www.microbirding.se/solvesborg/images/pictures/kaspisktrut3_nogersund050106.jpg
JanJ
http://www.microbirding.se/solvesborg/images/pictures/kaspisktrut3_nogersund050106.jpg
JanJ
Dermot Breen
Well-known member
Hi JanJ
Great shot to illustrate your point! Look forward to seeing one myself (finally). Heard there was seen here at Falsterbo last evening, so might catch up with one yet!
Dermot
Great shot to illustrate your point! Look forward to seeing one myself (finally). Heard there was seen here at Falsterbo last evening, so might catch up with one yet!
Dermot
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