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Gulls help, China (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter xuky.summer
- Start date
lou salomon
the birdonist
1-3 all look good for mongolicus, not entirely sure on the 2nd cycle but my feeling says it's another mongolian gull.
xuky.summer
Well-known member
Thank you, lou.
If the 2cy is a mongolicus, it must be a very dark one on his first winter.
If the 2cy is a mongolicus, it must be a very dark one on his first winter.
FWIW, I agree with mongolicus for the first-winters. I would have thought a vegae would be more solidly dark on the belly and more barred through the rump at this time. These birds have perhaps just not started to bleach yet.
I'm not sure a taimyrensis can ever look like the 2CY bird. Most have extensive blue-grey feathers through the mantle and coverts by the time they leave here late in their first-winter (with juvenile flight feathers). The combination of 'juvenile-looking' coverts and replaced primaries doesn't seem right for taimyrensis to me somehow (though fine for some other 2 CY gull).
However, the 'FWIW' means I'll happily stand corrected if wrong also!
Steve
Agree on the first winters (mongolicus due to advanced scapular moult). About the second winter one, I would expect a paler and more "snowy" plumage overall for a second winter mongolian gull, with head, underparts and coverts being a lot cleaner an paler and inner primary window being paler as well.
Also look and the still juvenile p10 , indication of a very late moult, perhaps more suitable for taimyrensis than mongolicus and that slender and pointed bill , which fits better taimyrensis
I suspect it's a slightly reatarded 2cy Taimyr Gull
Also look and the still juvenile p10 , indication of a very late moult, perhaps more suitable for taimyrensis than mongolicus and that slender and pointed bill , which fits better taimyrensis
I suspect it's a slightly reatarded 2cy Taimyr Gull
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xuky.summer
Well-known member
A silly question for you both (and of course for anyone for that matter) about the 2CY, but one that might help resolve whether or not this bird is taimyrensis !
Is the primary moult of a first-summer to second-winter generally 'in sync' with that of its respective adult? Or does it precede or lag it by some amount of time?
I ask because adult taimyrensis here are typically still replacing the outermost primaries right up into February (as are some birds I consider to be vegae), which leads me to believe that the 2CY here is quite advanced rather than retarded.
Steve
Is the primary moult of a first-summer to second-winter generally 'in sync' with that of its respective adult? Or does it precede or lag it by some amount of time?
I ask because adult taimyrensis here are typically still replacing the outermost primaries right up into February (as are some birds I consider to be vegae), which leads me to believe that the 2CY here is quite advanced rather than retarded.
Steve
lou salomon
the birdonist
hi steve, the rule is that the younger a bird is the earlier it moults. differences are up to, say, one month.
Thanks Lou and Alex. That's very useful to know!
As adult Mongolian Gull has finished its primary moult by now, I guess that at least can be excluded, then, and that the 2CY above is one of the more northerly taxa.
Steve
Look at these two second winter taimyrensis. They're not Flying but their upperparts pattern (and primary moult stage) may recall our bird here
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/taimy_2w_.htm
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/HeuG2w1028/Heug2w1028.html
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/taimy_2w_.htm
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/HeuG2w1028/Heug2w1028.html
Hi Alex,
Yes, I'm now convinced by your answer of retarded 2CY taimyrensis!
This was a baffling response for me at first as many first-winter taimyrensis here replace some mantle and covert feathers with adult-type grey feathers before they leave in spring (as in the first bird attached below (Feb)). I would therefore expect a 2CY in autumn to look much more like an adult than the bird in the OP, perhaps something more like the second bird I have attached (also Feb). However, this second bird does have an uniterrupted row of 'second-year-like' greater coverts (not adult-like grey ones), indicating that not all taimyrensis moult directly into more adult-like plumages during/post first-winter.
Much kudos to you for picking that one out!
Steve
Attachments
Well thank yu Steve but that's just my humble opinion. Doesn't mean it is actually a taimyr gull 
.
Your second bird is a 3cy february, that means it's about 4 months older than the OP bird. To correctly compare them we should see our bird in 4 months and check its covert moult state.
. Your second bird is a 3cy february, that means it's about 4 months older than the OP bird. To correctly compare them we should see our bird in 4 months and check its covert moult state.
xuky.summer
Well-known member
Thank you all!
Hi Steve, just a question, why your second is not a mongolicus? it has large morrors on p10, may be strange for a second-winter taimyrensis?
Hi Steve, just a question, why your second is not a mongolicus? it has large morrors on p10, may be strange for a second-winter taimyrensis?
Hi Xuky,
That's a fair question I suppose, and one I might not be able to answer well!
The wing of this bird for me is a second-winter wing (black secondaries) rather than a third-winter wing (blue-grey secondaries). Given that, everything about the bird looks very advanced (adult-type feathers above, uneven narrow tail band, yellow tones to the bill), as in a big gull that aquires adult plumage 'one year in advance' (i.e taimyrensis). I would have thought a mongolicus would show more traces of immaturity as a second-winter (e.g. more brown generally above, brown-centred tertials, a broader tail band) at this age.
However, I'm not especially confident with much beyond first-winters, and sample sizes here really are far too small!
Steve
