Another mystery for you (1 Viewer)

MarkS24 · Aug 1, 2006

Well, my residence seems to attract some of the stranger animals and occurrences. Here is another to add to the list.

Yesterday evening, I watched some hummingbirds and noted that my feeder had about 1/2 of its contents left. Now, I always put distinctive red food coloring in the feeder. I know it's said that it's not really required and sometimes frowned upon, but... the sugar water was unmistakably a darker shade of red, no where near dilluted or clear.

This morning (a little later in the morning), I woke up and when I walked by the window I stopped in my tracks. The sugar water in the feeder was *completely* clear, tinging on white. No red coloring in sight, and the water level in the feeder was at almost the exact same level as the evening before.

So, here's the new mystery (not a necessarily bothersome one), but I haven't the slightest clue what could have possibly done/caused this. Any ideas?

SesG · Aug 2, 2006

Your mystery is easily solved!
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Someone put some bleach in your hummer feeder!
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I do hope you took your feeders down!
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Or the vinegar you used to clean the vessel was not washed out.

Unless of course the wavelength of light was unable to pick up your dyed solution.

BTW...red dye in Hummer feeders is a No! No!

MarkS24 · Aug 2, 2006

Nope on the bleach - there's no one around here that could do that, even if they would. (live too far away from anyone). And there were ants which crawled in and died floating at the top from the day before, so I'm quite certain it wasn't tampered with.

Nope on the vinegar - I usually just wash the bottle out with tap water before refilling. Never used vinegar.

Also, the feeder had been left out for three to four days already before this happened, and it was perfectly normal until yesterday night when this happened. :h?:

I checked the bottle when I dumped it out as well (just in case the coloring had sunken to the bottom, as unlikely as that seems), but there was not the slightest bit of red to be found.

humminbird · Aug 2, 2006

MarkS24 said:
Nope on the bleach - there's no one around here that could do that, even if they would. (live too far away from anyone). And there were ants which crawled in and died floating at the top from the day before, so I'm quite certain it wasn't tampered with.

Nope on the vinegar - I usually just wash the bottle out with tap water before refilling. Never used vinegar.

Also, the feeder had been left out for three to four days already before this happened, and it was perfectly normal until yesterday night when this happened. :h?:

I checked the bottle when I dumped it out as well (just in case the coloring had sunken to the bottom, as unlikely as that seems), but there was not the slightest bit of red to be found.

IMHO, somebody was doing the birds a big favor - and you threw it out.

KC Foggin · Aug 2, 2006

BTW...red dye in Hummer feeders is a No! No!

A very big no no

SesG · Aug 2, 2006

Well the only other logical reason is biosorption, by either a fungi or bacteria. I am leaning towards a fungi. The turbidity ("tinging on white") you mention is an indication of a high concentration of colonized microbes. Depending on ambient tempertures, microbe grow can take hours to days to reach high enough concentration to be dangerous. But for compelete biosortion, we are talking weeks!*

*Journal of Biotechnology 89 (2001) 113–122 Capacity of Irpex lacteus and Pleurotus ostreatus for decolorization of chemically different dyes.

If indeed this phenomenon is occuring, one needs to take percautions. One should completely clean their Hummingbird feeders every thrid day, perhaps sooner in very high tempertures. Make sure you boil the water you are using for the feeder solution. And that you throughly clean all parts of your feeder to rid them of microorganisms! Do not use soap or bleach to clean your feeder. Vinegar can be used to help get rid of the fungi, but make sure you rinse very well after use.

MarkS24 · Aug 2, 2006

Interesting.. thanks for that info.

The temps have been very hot, in the 100s the last couple of weeks. But the hummers have also been hitting it hard too, so it's never gone more than a week before being refilled (usually five days or so). Could this really happen overnight? I noticed no dilluting of the mixture before it happened, it simply went from ruby colored at evening to clear in the morning, in just a matter of hours.

I do always boil the water - but haven't used anything else lately. I'll go ahead and clean it out with the vinegar though for a change.

By the way - not sure if this has any significance, but we use underground well water instead of city water.

SesG · Aug 2, 2006

MarkS24 said:
Interesting.. thanks for that info.

The temps have been very hot, in the 100s the last couple refilled (usually five days or so). Could this really happen overnight? I noticed no dilluting of the mixture before it happened, it simply went from ruby colored at evening to clear in the morning, in just a matter of hours.of weeks. But the hummers have also been hitting it hard too, so it's never gone more than a week before being

I do always boil the water - but haven't used anything else lately. I'll go ahead and clean it out with the vinegar though for a change.

By the way - not sure if this has any significance, but we use underground well water instead of city water.

The little reading I did this morning led me to beleive that complete biosorption takes weeks! But this was only one study.

If you are indeed boiling the water, then it makes NO difference were it comes from. Boiling kills microbes!

Waiting a week to clean your feeder is asking for trouble, especially in temps of 100+, and if the feeder is in the sun, you can add 10-20 degrees.

As responsible individuals we need to realize, if what we are doing for our birds, is harming them or helping them! Red dye has been linked to cancer, in lab studies! It is well known that fungi can produce a thrush, on the tongues of Hummingbirds. If one has feeder that cannot be santized, every third day, then one needs to get rid of the feeder! And I am not just talking about the bulb, that holds the fluid, I am talking about every part of the feeder.

Take Care.

MarkS24 · Aug 3, 2006

SesG said:
The little reading I did this morning led me to beleive that complete biosorption takes weeks! But this was only one study.

Hmm, yes.. a strange mystery indeed with the feeder changing colors.

As far as the dye, do you happen to have the links to the cancer studies? I was aware that an old dye used, Red 2 or 3 I believe, was linked to an increase of cancer in mice by about 1 in 100,000 or so. But the dye that is distributed these days is Red 40, which is in everything from children's vitamins to some delicious fruit snacks i'm actually eating as I type this.

As far as it serving no purpose to attract hummers and being no benefit to their dietary needs, I agree though.

humminbird · Aug 3, 2006

MarkS24 said:
Hmm, yes.. a strange mystery indeed with the feeder changing colors.

As far as the dye, do you happen to have the links to the cancer studies? I was aware that an old dye used, Red 2 or 3 I believe, was linked to an increase of cancer in mice by about 1 in 100,000 or so. But the dye that is distributed these days is Red 40, which is in everything from children's vitamins to some delicious fruit snacks i'm actually eating as I type this.

As far as it serving no purpose to attract hummers and being no benefit to their dietary needs, I agree though.

Are you aware that Perky Pet themselves admit to being able to find "no evidence at all" in reference to the safety question? Visit hummingbirds.net/dye.html for a letter from them.

SesG · Aug 3, 2006

MarkS24 said:
Hmm, yes.. a strange mystery indeed with the feeder changing colors.

As far as the dye, do you happen to have the links to the cancer studies? I was aware that an old dye used, Red 2 or 3 I believe, was linked to an increase of cancer in mice by about 1 in 100,000 or so. But the dye that is distributed these days is Red 40, which is in everything from children's vitamins to some delicious fruit snacks i'm actually eating as I type this.

As far as it serving no purpose to attract hummers and being no benefit to their dietary needs, I agree though.

There a hundreds of studies on the effects of red dye..."There are over 40 of these Red Dyes; they are very suspect of causing female breast cancer." "In 1970, two Russian studies on Red Dye # 2 showed that extremely small amounts of Red Dye # 2 caused birth defects, stillbirths, fetal deaths, and sterility in rats. The report was translated and given to the FDA. It was ignored and forgotten." "The National Cancer Institute reported that p-credine, a chemical used in preparation of Red #40, is carcinogenic in animals. " "Studies completed in the 1980s showed that high doses of FD&C Red No. 3 caused thyroid tumors in male rats." *

*http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2004/02/25/fd_c_red_dyes_sickness.htm

I have read many reports on the affect's of red dye and hummingbirds. There is nothing conclusive, because no one has conducted a controled study. However there is a lot of evidence linking red dye, and problems in humans and lab rats. The idea that birds are molecularly different form mammals is not a good reason to ignore these studies. Afterall the properties in the red dye, that cause ill-affect's, act at the cellular level and all carbon base beings have very similar cellular structure!

Bottom line is, red dye is added to products for a point of sale!

humminbird · Aug 3, 2006

I think we ask the wrong question on this one though. Why is it that those who recommend against using red food dye are asked to prove it is harmful instead of asking those who produce the product to prove it is safe?

MarkS24 · Aug 3, 2006

I believe Red 2/3 and 40 are very different though, or different enough. I think if they were very similar the FDA would have banned 40 along with the other two. At least i'd hope so, since it's in just about everything we eat these days.

From that article though, which says p-credine is used in preparation, it sounds as though it's only used in the manufacturing process. It sounds like none may actually be present in the red dye itself that reaches consumers.

Oddly, I tried googling p-credine and only found 9 results, all of which were articles claiming that its use in preparation of Red 40 as a reason for not using. But there wasn't a single article on it I could find at the National Cancer Institute's website, nor anything about what it actually is or does.

SesG · Aug 3, 2006

MarkS24 said:
I believe Red 2/3 and 40 are very different though, or different enough. I think if they were very similar the FDA would have banned 40 along with the other two. At least i'd hope so, since it's in just about everything we eat these days.

From that article though, which says p-credine is used in preparation, it sounds as though it's only used in the manufacturing process. It sounds like none may actually be present in the red dye itself that reaches consumers.

Oddly, I tried googling p-credine and only found 9 results, all of which were articles claiming that its use in preparation of Red 40 as a reason for not using. But there wasn't a single article on it I could find at the National Cancer Institute's website, nor anything about what it actually is or does.

I have no idea what p-credine is, but apparently it is used in the preparation of Red 40, just like I use water in the preparation of biscuits.

I did find some interesting reading...http://www.trochilids.com/dye.html

After all of this reading, I doubt I will ever eat anything again, unless it comes from my garden. 8-P

dendroica_john · Aug 3, 2006

Here is a corrected version of the last link.

http://www.trochilids.com/dye.html

MarkS24 · Aug 4, 2006

Well, it's important to not become too paranoid. I've had a lot of "dealings" per say with the world of alternative medicine, and I can say that there is a truly enormous amount of misinformation floating about the internet in regards to health.

Just want to caution that it's a bad idea to rely on the word of a few articles, especially on the p-credine issue. There are many scaremongers out there. The fact that nothing can be found on p-credine anywhere throws up a major red flag. If it was truly carcinogenic and used in the making of the extremely common red dye 40, I would expect there to be hundreds of thousands of article on google about it.

But even if it is.. remember, if it's like the dye that they did find to be cancerous, the risk rate is only 1 in 100,000 in a 70 year lifetime! To put it in perspective, the odds of getting struck by lightning in your lifetime are 1 in 5000.

humminbird · Aug 4, 2006

MarkS24 said:
But even if it is.. remember, if it's like the dye that they did find to be cancerous, the risk rate is only 1 in 100,000 in a 70 year lifetime! To put it in perspective, the odds of getting struck by lightning in your lifetime are 1 in 5000.

For HUMANS. We are discussing an animal that eats proportionately far more of it in this concentration than we do. We are discussing an animal that has a much higher metabolism than we do. We are discussing an animal that this product was NEVER described as the intended user by the manufacturer.

I would hardly describe Bob Sargent, Sheri Williamson, Lanny McDonald, and the others who have been quoted on many of those websites as the alternative medicine group.

Curtis Croulet · Aug 4, 2006

SesG said:
Make sure you boil the water you are using for the feeder solution.

Unless you are prepared to also autoclave your feeders, storage bottles, and the birds themselves, boiling has no benefit. The moment the nectar is exposed to air, it is contaminated, and the problem just increases when the birds put their tongues into it. I would recommend easy-to-clean feeders (many popular models are not) and a clean-refill cycle of two or three days as an effective cure for mold.

humminbird · Aug 4, 2006

Curtis Croulet said:
Unless you are prepared to also autoclave your feeders, storage bottles, and the birds themselves, boiling has no benefit. The moment the nectar is exposed to air, it is contaminated, and the problem just increases when the birds put their tongues into it. I would recommend easy-to-clean feeders (many popular models are not) and a clean-refill cycle of two or three days as an effective cure for mold.

Thank you Curtis. I was biting my tongue on that old boil myth.

SesG · Aug 4, 2006

humminbird said:
Thank you Curtis. I was biting my tongue on that old boil myth.

Boiling water to destroy pathogens in not a myth!

Granted, after the water is boiled it can be re-contaminated. But boiling is useful to destroy microbes, that may benefit from the sugar, to colonize themselves (fungi). I will continue to boil the water I use for my feeders. Just like I do before I home can.

MarkS24 said:
Well, it's important to not become too paranoid. I've had a lot of "dealings" per say with the world of alternative medicine, and I can say that there is a truly enormous amount of misinformation floating about the internet in regards to health.

Just want to caution that it's a bad idea to rely on the word of a few articles, especially on the p-credine issue. There are many scaremongers out there. The fact that nothing can be found on p-credine anywhere throws up a major red flag. If it was truly carcinogenic and used in the making of the extremely common red dye 40, I would expect there to be hundreds of thousands of article on google about it.

But even if it is.. remember, if it's like the dye that they did find to be cancerous, the risk rate is only 1 in 100,000 in a 70 year lifetime! To put it in perspective, the odds of getting struck by lightning in your lifetime are 1 in 5000.

I am not paranoid, just well informed and educated. Nor have I relied on a few articles from "scaremongers." Every link I have posted is for scientific proof that Azo Dyes are harmful! And when one looks at the FD50 for lab animals, one would be blind not to see that the amount of red dye a Hummingbird ingests, far exceeds this.

The reason you cannot find anything about p-credine is because it is spelled wrong! What the article released in the Consumer’s Dictionary of Food Additives, Ruth Winters, M.S., pg.185, should have read is p-Cresidine or p-cresidine sulfonic acid, a well known carcinogen, used by the petroleum industry, to make the red azo dyes, that go into all of your yummy treats!

Here is where is shows up in RED 40:
1-amino-2-naphthol-6-sulfonic acid

Complete Red 40 formula....
dialuminum salt of 6-hydroxy-5-(2-methoxy-5-methyl-4-sulfnphenyl) azo-2-naphthalene sulfonic acid

Have a nice day.

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