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New Leicas - Let the Games Begin! (1 Viewer)

Chosun Juan said:
Hmmm, ..... Trouble(e) Brewing! B :)

This whole lot of shennanigans is either the figment of some extremely bored Bf posters, or an example of the old "bait and switch" tactic beloved of snake-oil salesman, and car-boot bargain operators alike, ay guvnor?!

Troub(lee) - have you been employed as some sort of plausibly deniable viral gorilla marketer?! ....... |8.|

If so .... Best keep one eye on the Trade Practices and Anti-Competition Consumer Commission suits, and the other one on an exit-stage-right bolt to the Ecuadorian Consulate!!!

Otherwise - speculate away! :cat:


FWIW, I really like-a the Leica faux Ostrich Skin Leather look - and that bag would make the perfect accessory to the fashionista sistas along the latte strip!



Chosun :gh:
Click to expand...

CJ

Sorry to disappoint you but there is no dark undercurrent of misdeeds and wilful sowing of misinformation.

Just some exciting news that was subsequently withdrawn, for reasons best known to somebody somewhere in between Solms and Wetzlar, leaving me feeling sorry that I posted in the first place :eat:.

Still we have got some brightly coloured mini-Ultravids to hang up as Christmas decorations!!

BTW nice to hear from you too :)

Lee
 
Let the Games Begin!

See, I was right...they are testing the waters for Wallmart.
Seriously though, certainly easier to find in the field when you lay them down.
Wonder what the price increase will be and whether they will do this with their larger glass?
Art
 
Latest news.

According to a report received, Leica tried to base the next Ultravid on the Perger Prism but couldn't get the weight down to a reasonable level. So its back to Plan B, whatever that is...

Could be we might have to wait as long for the next top Leica as for the next top Zeiss 32mm.


Lee
 
Troubador said:
Latest news.

According to a report received, Leica tried to base the next Ultravid on the Perger Prism but couldn't get the weight down to a reasonable level. So its back to Plan B, whatever that is...

Could be we might have to wait as long for the next top Leica as for the next top Zeiss 32mm.


Lee
Click to expand...

Deep Throat,

Got your message.... will relay to Agent 99.

Of course, they couldn't, that's why most companies use S-P prisms despite their need for major TLC. If what your informant told you is true, then Leica missed a golden opportunity to deliver something truly different, which could have put them over the top with the others in the Fantastic Four, but now we will have Ultravid HD2 with the usual incremental changes for diminishing return$.

They should at least use Perger prisms for their oversized models.

In regard to the lack of a midsized bin in the HT line, it has increased the price of the 8x32 FL on eBay. The price had come down on the 8x32 FL, but after the HT line came out and no 8x32 model was announced, the price went up again. Check eBay, they're going for $1999.

<B>
 
brocknroller said:
Deep Throat,

Got your message.... will relay to Agent 99.

Of course, they couldn't, that's why most companies use S-P prisms despite their need for major TLC. If what your informant told you is true, then Leica missed a golden opportunity to deliver something truly different, which could have put them over the top with the others in the Fantastic Four, but now we will have Ultravid HD2 with the usual incremental changes for diminishing return$.

They should at least use Perger prisms for their oversized models.

In regard to the lack of a midsized bin in the HT line, it has increased the price of the 8x32 FL on eBay. The price had come down on the 8x32 FL, but after the HT line came out and no 8x32 model was announced, the price went up again. Check eBay, they're going for $1999.

<B>
Click to expand...


I agree - it is sad if they have missed this opportunity to make something really different, and most likely really better. But the marketing guys shout "weight, weight" because it is easier for them to tout something for its low weight than explaining the true advantages of a Perger prism.

Cheers,
Holger
 
Holger Merlitz said:
I agree - it is sad if they have missed this opportunity to make something really different, and most likely really better. But the marketing guys shout "weight, weight" because it is easier for them to tout something for its low weight than explaining the true advantages of a Perger prism.
Click to expand...

I don't agree. At the current state of our knowledge (well, you have an advance above us on this), it's the other way round: "weight" is hard measurable criterion, while "perger primism" is just a technical term, a marketing term that doesn't tell us anyhing about what advantages it actually provides.

What could these "true advantages" of Perger prisms be? I guess a few % transmission, perhaps a bit less aberation here and there. Nice, but if this means that it weights more and is bigger than the current Ultravid, that would not at all be interesting to me and probably the same to at least a good share of other potential custumers. Perger prisms are certainly technically interesting, but if they can provide real tangible advantages to the user remains an entirely different question.
 
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dalat said:
I don't agree. At the current state of our knowledge (well, you have an advance above us on this), it's the other way round: "weight" is hard measurable criterion, while "perger primism" is just a technical term, a marketing term that doesn't tell us anyhing about what advantages it actually provides.

What could these "true advantages" of Perger prisms be? I guess a few % transmission, perhaps a bit less aberation here and there. Nice, but if this means that it weights more and is bigger than the current Ultravid, that would not at all be interesting to me and probably the same to at least a good share of other potential custumers. Perger prisms are certainly technically interesting, but if they can provide real tangible advantages to the user remains an entirely different question.
Click to expand...

You are right Dalat.
I have seen a lot of excitement caused by the use of these prisms but no explanation of what they offer optically. The Leica website doesn't offer much info either: "sharp, high-contrast view with outstanding depth and plasticity, thanks to Perger Porro prisms".
Perhaps someone can explain the attractions of a plastic view?

I sometimes wonder if the excitement is simply due to the idea of a new sort of porro prism after so many years of almost nothing but roofs.

Lee
 
Troubador said:
You are right Dalat.
I have seen a lot of excitement caused by the use of these prisms but no explanation of what they offer optically. The Leica website doesn't offer much info either: "sharp, high-contrast view with outstanding depth and plasticity, thanks to Perger Porro prisms".
Perhaps someone can explain the attractions of a plastic view?

I sometimes wonder if the excitement is simply due to the idea of a new sort of porro prism after so many years of almost nothing but roofs.

Lee
Click to expand...



Well, Perger Prisms are essentially Porros - they have no roof! Means, all those troubles (residual diffraction at the roof-edge, residual contrast loss due to imperfect P-coating, tiny tolerances while shaping that roof-angle) are absent. Theoretically, this should reduce production costs while, at the same time, yielding an excellent image quality. Those who praise the outstanding sharpness of the Swaro Habicht (which costs half of the price of the SV) may imagine the same sharpness with the new Ultravid, and this along with price tags well below those of Zeiss HT or Swarovision.

Is it not worth carrying an extra 100g?

Sure, I know we are talking about Leica. Perhaps, they won't make them cheaper than their competitors, to keep them high up on the 'must have' scale ;-)

The "plastic" just refers to the improved stereoscopic (3D) image due to the axis-offset (which, with the Perger, is about half of the Porro's, but somewhat wider than the Abbe-Koenig's).

Don't get me wrong: I don't want to imply that weight is irrelevant. Instead, I would like to have more choices to select from. There exist good, light-weight binoculars which use Schmidt-Pechan prisms. Whoever wants them and who is willing to pay the extra $$$, he may choose them. I am willing to carry a little extra weight, if, by doing that, I can safe a few hundred bucks, without compromising performance.

Cheers,
Holger
 
Holger:

You have mentioned some important points, and it seems there has
not been any mention of how the Perger prism is any different than any other
design on the market today. If Leica is trying to make the porro better, then
they have a challenge in even trying to beat the Nikon SE, which I consider the
best porro binocular on the market today.

It seems to me, Leica has tried hard to be smaller and lighter than the rest
in their binocular design, as in the current Ultravid. They have not been able
to prove these are any better than the top competition.

I have a feeling the Perger design will not go forward. They have it in their
rangefinder model, and from what I have seen posted it is no better than the
other offerings.

Jerry
 
NDhunter said:
Holger:

You have mentioned some important points, and it seems there has
not been any mention of how the Perger prism is any different than any other
design on the market today. If Leica is trying to make the porro better, then
they have a challenge in even trying to beat the Nikon SE, which I consider the
best porro binocular on the market today.

It seems to me, Leica has tried hard to be smaller and lighter than the rest
in their binocular design, as in the current Ultravid. They have not been able
to prove these are any better than the top competition.

I have a feeling the Perger design will not go forward. They have it in their
rangefinder model, and from what I have seen posted it is no better than the
other offerings.

Jerry
Click to expand...


Jerry,

It is true, what makes the Ultravids special is their emphasis on compactness - here they even compromise other parameters like eye-relief. With the Perger, such a compact construction would be impossible, even though the Perger delivers smaller housings than the traditional Porro.

Regarding optical performance, the rangefinder does not serve as a suitable benchmark. In order to couple the laser-beam into the light path, and to allow the display-readout, one of the optical planes inside the prism construction has to be coated with a dichroic layer, which takes away some of the transmission and hence reduces the optical performance a little bit. Rangefinders are optically always a little inferior to conventional binoculars.

Cheers,
Holger
 
Holger Merlitz said:
Well, Perger Prisms are essentially Porros - they have no roof! Means, all those troubles (residual diffraction at the roof-edge, residual contrast loss due to imperfect P-coating, tiny tolerances while shaping that roof-angle) are absent. Theoretically, this should reduce production costs while, at the same time, yielding an excellent image quality. Those who praise the outstanding sharpness of the Swaro Habicht (which costs half of the price of the SV) may imagine the same sharpness with the new Ultravid, and this along with price tags well below those of Zeiss HT or Swarovision.

Is it not worth carrying an extra 100g?

Sure, I know we are talking about Leica. Perhaps, they won't make them cheaper than their competitors, to keep them high up on the 'must have' scale ;-)

The "plastic" just refers to the improved stereoscopic (3D) image due to the axis-offset (which, with the Perger, is about half of the Porro's, but somewhat wider than the Abbe-Koenig's).

Don't get me wrong: I don't want to imply that weight is irrelevant. Instead, I would like to have more choices to select from. There exist good, light-weight binoculars which use Schmidt-Pechan prisms. Whoever wants them and who is willing to pay the extra $$$, he may choose them. I am willing to carry a little extra weight, if, by doing that, I can safe a few hundred bucks, without compromising performance.

Cheers,
Holger
Click to expand...

Thanks Holger, a nice summing up. Much appreciated.

Lee
 
As evidenced by the price of their new Ultravids, which are about $400-$500 more than other companies' second tier models, even if Pergers cost less to make, as Holger wrote, Leica would probably pump up the price to look competitive at the alpha level. A Perger Ultravid could be the most expensive 42mm porro ever made.

We won't see that, of course, because of the weight/size restrictions that Leica imposes on its designs,and no doubt, most birders desire smaller, lighter bins -- just ask Annabeth, who's got her eye on the 8x32 Ultravid HD for those very reasons.

But in the 50-56mm range where the bin has to be long and a bit bulky anyway, Leica could (and still might) use Pergers, particularly now that Swarovski is making their 56mm SLCs with Abbe-Konig prisms. In the large size format, brighter is better and more important to hunters than weight. Since Leica already has the design developed in the Rangefinder, it wouldn't take much to adapt it to non-rangefinder bins. So there's a chance we might see Perger prisms in Leica's large format bins.

There are no large format Zeiss HTs or Conquest HDs yet, and Nikon only makes large format bins at the Monarch level, so Perger Leica 8x,10x and 15x56 models could fill a niche that neither Zeiss or Nikon is filling with new bins (the FLs are still available in large format, AFAIK), and give the Swaro 56mm models a run for the money, but Leica would have to be at least somewhat competitive price-wise with the SLCs to make that happen, and the cheaper to manufacturer porro prisms could make that possible.

Brock
 
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brocknroller said:
As evidenced by the price of their new Ultravids, which are about $400-$500 more than other companies' second tier models, even if Pergers cost less to make, as Holger wrote, Leica would probably pump up the price to look competitive at the alpha level. A Perger Ultravid could be the most expensive 42mm porro ever made.

We won't see that, of course, because of the weight/size restrictions that Leica imposes on its designs,and no doubt, most birders desire smaller, lighter bins -- just ask Annabeth, who's got her eye on the 8x32 Ultravid HD for those very reasons.

But in the 50-56mm range where the bin has to be long and a bit bulky anyway, Leica could (and still might) use Pergers, particularly now that Swarovski is making their 56mm SLCs with Abbe-Konig prisms. In the large size format, brighter is better and more important to hunters than weight. Since Leica already has the design developed in the Rangefinder, it wouldn't take much to adapt it to non-rangefinder bins. So there's a chance we might see Perger prisms in Leica's large format bins.

There are no large format Zeiss HTs or Conquest HDs yet, and Nikon only makes large format bins at the Monarch level, so Perger Leica 8x,10x and 15x56 models could fill a niche that neither Zeiss or Nikon is filling with new bins (the FLs are still available in large format, AFAIK), and give the Swaro 56mm models a run for the money, but Leica would have to be at least somewhat competitive price-wise with the SLCs to make that happen, and the cheaper to manufacturer porro prisms could make that possible.

Brock
Click to expand...

Right, designing a line of big binoculars with Perger prism sounds reasonable, as competitors to the large Abbe-Koenig models of Zeiss (FL) and Swaro (SLC). These would be interesting for astro use as well.

Cheers,
Holger
 
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