Kestrel with Unbarred Rufous-pinky Tail (1 Viewer)

RecoveringScot · May 22, 2017

Photographed on Shetland:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10158689399095626&set=gm.715093828670832&type=3&theater

Note the wholly unbarred-looking pinkish tail, with terminal band. Is this just a Eurasian Kestrel with a scarce plumage? Something about the proportions and bill size also looks not usual. And that hint of a whitish supercilium. But it might be the way the bird is sitting.

According to Forsman F. tinnunculus shows thinnish dark barring on tail as juv., but 1CY naumanni juvs. may show unbarred rufous-grey tail with terminal band.

Nearly all the photos I've looked at of Kestrel sp. juvs or females show obvious tail-barring, the only exception being male American Kestrel (which species crossed my mind briefly).

Or is it all just me getting fussed about nothing?

JWN Andrewes · May 23, 2017

Talons look rather pale too...

RecoveringScot · May 23, 2017

JWN Andrewes said:
Talons look rather pale too...

That could be light reflection. Well, I dunno what it is, but over a long life I've seen many juv/fem Common Kestrels and I've never seen one that looked like this bird does. If it's a Common it's a remarkably odd one.

markspirito · May 23, 2017

RecoveringScot said:
Photographed on Shetland:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10158689399095626&set=gm.715093828670832&type=3&theater

Note the wholly unbarred-looking pinkish tail, with terminal band. Is this just a Eurasian Kestrel with a scarce plumage? Something about the proportions and bill size also looks not usual. And that hint of a whitish supercilium. But it might be the way the bird is sitting.

According to Forsman F. tinnunculus shows thinnish dark barring on tail as juv., but 2CY naumanni juvs. may show unbarred rufous tail with terminal band.

Nearly all the photos I've looked at of Kestrel sp. juvs or females show obvious tail-barring, the only exception being male American Kestrel (which species crossed my mind briefly).

Or is it all just me getting fussed about nothing?

Can you possibly put the photo directly on to here rather than via facebook,? as i cannot open it ...

Thanks from Mark

RecoveringScot · May 23, 2017

markspirito said:
Can you possibly put the photo directly on to here rather than via facebook,? as i cannot open it ...

Thanks from Mark

No, Mark. That would be breach of copyright.

Cheers

Andy Adcock · May 23, 2017

RecoveringScot said:
No, Mark. That would be breach of copyright.

Cheers

Not if it's credited to the photographer and not done for gain surely?

I know about the politeness angle of course but has he actually copyrighted it?

A

Jos Stratford · May 23, 2017

andyadcock said:
Not if it's credited to the photographer and not done for gain surely?

I know about the politeness angle of course but has he actually copyrighted it?

Crediting does not remove copyright, nor does a photographer need to actively take actions to copyright it.

RecoveringScot · May 23, 2017

andyadcock said:
Not if it's credited to the photographer and not done for gain surely?

I know about the politeness angle of course but has he actually copyrighted it?

A

Under British law copyright exists by default. You don't need to assert it as you do in America. In addition, there is no concept of 'fair use' in British copyright law unlike America (1988 Act, which I have read, as I have a personal reason for doing so). Merely crediting a photo does not abrogate the breach of copyright in posting someone else's photo. One needs permission to copy even if one is downloading for one's own use privately. The right is absolute. The only allowances are for 'educational institutions', e.g. students or teachers can reproduce up to 10% of an article or piece of writing in classwork. There is no right to copy a CD to a hard drive, even if you've bought it.

Even the BBC, in a feature on copyright law, appeared not to know that British and US copyright law are entirely different, and therefore gave dud advice.

Cheers

RecoveringScot · May 23, 2017

I've edited my original post, as I was a bit groggy this morning. In Forsman it's 1CY naumanni that can show unbarred rufous-grey tails with terminal band, not 2CY.

John Cantelo · May 23, 2017

Wings look rather long in relation to the tail tip but that might just be the posture ...

RecoveringScot · May 23, 2017

John Cantelo said:
Wings look rather long in relation to the tail tip but that might just be the posture ...

I've been looking up experts e.g. Corso (in BB - pdf). Apparently both species can show or lack certain features from time to time so one has difficulty stating exactly which species it is by any single feature or couple of features. The unbarred tail, the finer streaking on the breast and flanks, the blackish small bill and apparent 'flat' face, the longish wings, and the faint black line behind the eye are all fairly good for LK, but I think one really needs an expert to be definitive about juv/fems out of range. The winds had been SE when this bird was seen, but I suppose in any case one would have to assume the commoner species, unless there's a very good reason not to. It just *looks cuter* than CK to me, and more pinky rufous too.

Cheers

Nutcracker · May 23, 2017

markspirito said:
Can you possibly put the photo directly on to here rather than via facebook,? as i cannot open it ...

Thanks from Mark

Try clicking this direct link to the individual photo, it might bypass Farcebook's barriers.

rosbifs · May 23, 2017

When we had a dead LK in the village the 'parcs' guy had lots of 'plates' showing patterns on back. Sadly, I don't have access but a 'ringer ' on here should be able to examine back pattern...

RecoveringScot · May 23, 2017

rosbifs said:
When we had a dead LK in the village the 'parcs' guy had lots of 'plates' showing patterns on back. Sadly, I don't have access but a 'ringer ' on here should be able to examine back pattern...

Sounds great. Will probably be settled by a demonstration of moult stage and features about which I know as much as I know about the inner life of Donald Trump. I'm not really that optimistic.

But I'm cheered that nobody has said it's obviously a Common Kestrel ....yet.

Cheers

markspirito · May 24, 2017

Nutcracker said:
Try clicking this direct link to the individual photo, it might bypass Farcebook's barriers.

Thanks for that, got it now, Nice looking bird

Mark

Phil Andrews · May 24, 2017

Is it worth re-posting on the ID Forum where it may get a bit more attention?

ChrisKten · May 24, 2017

This might help, although I doubt there's anything you've not seen/read elsewhere.

rosbifs · May 24, 2017

Claws not black that is for sure

i'm more inclined to say barring rather than spots on top of back

someone already noted wing length

where does that take us

RecoveringScot · May 24, 2017

Phil Andrews said:
Is it worth re-posting on the ID Forum where it may get a bit more attention?

Done:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=345115

Cheers

RecoveringScot · May 24, 2017

ChrisKten said:
This might help, although I doubt there's anything you've not seen/read elsewhere.

Always interesting. The photos do show just how similar these phases of both species can be.

Cheers

Kestrel with Unbarred Rufous-pinky Tail (1 Viewer)

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