Great Egret bill colouration (1 Viewer)

Hi all,

hoping somebody can provide some definitive info.

I looked at a number of pictures of Great Egret on Birdguides. It appears that Great Egret (in Britain) only has an all black bill for part of May and June.

Can anyone confirm that is the case - particularly the the all black bill is a feature for only a short period?

thanks in advance
Gordon

Does this help?

I looked in my bird book as your post raised questions for me, too. Immature/winter= yellow bill. Adult summer=black bill. My book isn't specific about the months, nor does it mention/show what happens during the transition phase.

Thanks Nicky.
I should be more specific - I'm trying to establish if bill colouration can be a diagnostic factor in ID'ing Great White. That is, if a bird is suspected of being a Great White but shows an all black bill in mid-August can Great White be ruled out?

Gordon said:

Thanks Nicky.
I should be more specific - I'm trying to establish if bill colouration can be a diagnostic factor in ID'ing Great White. That is, if a bird is suspected of being a Great White but shows an all black bill in mid-August can Great White be ruled out?

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Do you mean Little Egret vs Great White Egret?
Black bills are very rare in other times of the year, but they do occur. However, such birds will usually show a reddish or yellow tibia (rest of legs/feet black), unlike Little.

Gordon said:

Thanks Nicky.
I should be more specific - I'm trying to establish if bill colouration can be a diagnostic factor in ID'ing Great White. That is, if a bird is suspected of being a Great White but shows an all black bill in mid-August can Great White be ruled out?

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Most Ardeidae have breeding colours on a very limited amount of time. I'm not sure which month in UK, but if you tell me black bills are shown in May and June, that's two months, it is what I expect.

I don't say an exception is impossible, but if breeding conditions starts in May, for sure vast majority of Great Egrets will have yellow bill in August, even in July.

Thanks Alino ... would you say that a suspected (by some) Great Egret with an all black bill in mid-August cannot be a Great Egret.

Gordon said:

Thanks Alino ... would you say that a suspected (by some) Great Egret with an all black bill in mid-August cannot be a Great Egret.

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Very weak chances indeed

This is an example from India with an apparently black bill.

http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=1110&Bird_Image_ID=122830

satyachil said:

This is an example from India with an apparently black bill.

http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_ID=1110&Bird_Image_ID=122830

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An adult individual is showing this plumage short time, but in some tropical places, breeding season is not as stereotyped than in temperate areas. It means we can meet a bird in breeding conditions in a much wider range of time.

I've been asking because of this picture. Thoughts appreciated.

Great Egret because of size of the bird versus width of the road.

Hi Jurek - even though it seems highly improbable that Great Egret would have an all-black bill in mid-August?

What would be your thoughts regarding a leucistic Grey Heron?

I'm stumped by the short bill...

I think this is just a Little Egret. Relative size can be very confusing, and we don't know about the width of the road.

The photo shows the head clearly, and there is no gape line going behind the eye, as there would be with a Great Egret (see my enlarged attachment) but not with a Little Egret. Black is the right colour for a non-breeding Little Egret's bill; it gets some yellow or pink when breeding, but this is gone because it's not in breeding plumage any more. Also, the bill doesn't look long enough in relation to the overall size of the bird and the head size for Great Egret. We can't see the feet.

And isn't Little much more likely in Britain than Great?

Grey Heron doesn't have a black bill at all, and so leucistic Grey Heron is a non-starter.

AlinoVegano said:

I'm stumped by the short bill...

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Almost looked a bit Cattle Egret-like to me, but wrong for that in other features. Perhaps a juvenile that isn't fully grown yet?

Otherwise, it's slightly greyish, and in Twite habitat, so mebbe a grey twite-egret? 3

Tho' I suspect MacNara's right with Little Egret.

In case it helps . . .

It is a pity we don't see the beak better. Away from the short bill, it is perfectly a Little Egret. Can it be broken?

I agree it is not Grey Heron nor Great Egret, and in both cases the too short bill would be problematic as well.

I guess you didn't see its foot coloring?

There was one other poor picture of the bird in flight from behind and it did not appear to have yellow feet.

A number of people who saw the picture suggested Great Egret - on the basis of size judged against the road.

Strangely, I had seen a large white egret/heron a week before this picture was taken about 2 Km away. Unusually I only had a small, cheap pair of bins with me and only saw the bird for about 10 seconds (at about 80m) and mainly 3/4 or rear view. At first I thought it must be a Great Egret but looking at it through bins there clearly was grey (not white) feathering on the upper wing coverts and primaries. Also, there was a clear dark stripe running over the crown onto the nape and the tail looked grey. I immediately put Great Egret to the side and when the bird flew away and banked behind a conifer plantation it showed a yellow bill - leucistic Grey Heron and no further action taken.

A week later this picture pops up and I'm immediately struck by how likely is it that a leucistic Grey Heron and a Great Egret would appear in close proximity and time? Both my sighting and the picture are on the border of Dumfries and Galloway and East Ayrshire (Scotland) and a Great Egret spent a couple of days in the vicinity in July 2007. So it would, indeed, be a good record.

At first I was willing to accept that I'd seen a leucistic Grey Heron and then a Great Egret had turned up. However, it continued to niggle me so I posted the following thoughts on Facebook - "Do you have any thoughts on the bill? It looks quite short (photo artefact?). The feathering from the chin out along the lower bill seems a bit extensive. There also seems to be a bit of a bump rather than a smooth slope from the bill to the crown (again, photo artefact?). Also seems to have a very long tail - more like Intermediate!" To date there have been responses.

I have also shown the picture to a couple of people who are very highly regarded in terms of identification skills and they feel that despite the apparent black bill in the photo that, structurally, the bird may well be a Grey Heron (having considered the possibility of Little Egret but then excluding that species because the tail appears to be grey).

It's going to go down as one that will not be "nailed". I doubt if anybody will actually submit it to the relevant recorder as it was photographed by a non-birder.

Gordon said:

...having considered the possibility of Little Egret but then excluding that species because the tail appears to be grey...

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The bird appears to have a full crop, so it's just fed. I think the tail colouration and the same colouration at the base of the bill and on the legs which is more apparent on Nutcracker's lightened photo is just muck from wherever it was feeding (if it's not just a photo artefact), and it is just a Little Egret. Also, if it has been standing in mud, the yellow feet may not be apparent, even in flight.

Given all the things that point to Little, rejecting this ID on the basis of (most likely) a bit of mud on the tail in favour of an ID (leucisitic Grey Heron) for which this small area of discolouration is the main identifying feature seems a bit extreme to me.

Also I don't understand your ID of the 'leucistic Grey Heron' you said you saw a week before.

Gordon said:

At first I thought it must be a Great Egret but looking at it through bins there clearly was grey (not white) feathering on the upper wing coverts and primaries. Also, there was a clear dark stripe running over the crown onto the nape and the tail looked grey. I immediately put Great Egret to the side and when the bird flew away and banked behind a conifer plantation it showed a yellow bill - leucistic Grey Heron and no further action taken.

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If it had the colouration of a Grey Heron and a yellow bill, why was it leucistic? Grey Herons have a yellow bill when not breeding - sometimes very yellow, sometimes a bit greyish-yellow.

It's clearly a little egret for the reasons given by MacNara