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Rare Bird Found and Killed for “Research” ? (1 Viewer)

And if you must kill it, get on and kill it. Don't brandish it around, increasing its stress, just for a few self-agrandizing publicity shots, drawing out the bird's ordeal all the more.
 
Why the scare quotes? Do you mean to imply it was killed for some non-scientific reason?

I also think the quotes are justified. In that they had ample opportunity to photograph, take a DNA specimen, take a feather sample, take biometrics etc., why did they need it?

Museum collection one-upmanship would be my guess. The OP is certainly not the only one appalled at killing this bird in the name of "research".

Toby
 
Why the scare quotes? Do you mean to imply it was killed for some non-scientific reason?

Not scare quotes merely a perfectly reasonable way in which to indicate a doubt that the research was either legitimate, justifiable or, indeed, scientific. At best it seems speculative as no research appears to be on going (at least not that couldn't have been attained by non-lethal methods) and, at worst, mere trophy hunting as suggested. I find it odd that you seem more alarmed by the suggestion that this may have been done on flimsy scientific grounds than it was done at all. I find it particularly alarming that from the reports that I've seen it was taken even though the bird seems rare and its finders did not seem to have a good idea of what the total population might be. In the finder's blog it's stated that the species "voice and habits are poorly known" something to which taking this specimen will not have contributed to elucidating.
 
Not scare quotes merely a perfectly reasonable way in which to indicate a doubt that the research was either legitimate, justifiable or, indeed, scientific. At best it seems speculative as no research appears to be on going (at least not that couldn't have been attained by non-lethal methods) and, at worst, mere trophy hunting as suggested. I find it odd that you seem more alarmed by the suggestion that this may have been done on flimsy scientific grounds than it was done at all. I find it particularly alarming that from the reports that I've seen it was taken even though the bird seems rare and its finders did not seem to have a good idea of what the total population might be. In the finder's blog it's stated that the species "voice and habits are poorly known" something to which taking this specimen will not have contributed to elucidating.

And I'm alarmed at your & other's willingness to impute tawdry motives to a highly respected scientific institution on the sole basis of personal distaste for specimen collection. "Trophy hunters", come, come. They're taxonomists practicing their trade, not big game hunters or "world birders" pursuing trivial personal goals.
 
And I'm alarmed at your & other's willingness to impute tawdry motives to a highly respected scientific institution on the sole basis of personal distaste for specimen collection. "Trophy hunters", come, come. They're taxonomists practicing their trade, not big game hunters or "world birders" pursuing trivial personal goals.

All this aside,
most will take a lot of convincing that the population of this rare and beautiful bird had to be further diminished in this way.

Science has surely progressed to the point of making 'type specimens' redundant?

You call them 'taxonomists', fine but anything they needed to know could have be gleaned from sampling?

fugl also states 'they not big game hunters or "world birders" pursuing trivial personal goals.


Explain that to 'Joe public' who I'm sure would be totally bemused and horrified that this was done in the name of separating two 'species', surely this is trivial in the grand scheme, they're not curing cancer!....It is by it's very definition 'trivial' however you try to dress it up..

This kind of 'science' is a throwback and needs addressing by the institutions that fund these escapades.

Dress it up as you will, 99% of people, including scientists now find this at best distasteful, unethical and plain unnecessary.

Andy
 
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All this aside,
most will take a lot of convincing that the population of this rare and beautiful bird had to be further diminished in this way.

Science has surely progressed to the point of making 'type specimens' redundant?

You call them 'taxonomists', fine but anything they needed to know could have be gleaned from sampling?

fugl also states 'they not big game hunters or "world birders" pursuing trivial personal goals.


Explain that to 'Joe public' who I'm sure would be totally bemused and horrified that this was done in the name of separating two 'species', surely this is trivial in the grand scheme, they're not curing cancer!....It is by it's very definition 'trivial' however you try to dress it up..

This kind of 'science' is a throwback and needs addressing by the institutions that fund these escapades.

Dress it up as you will, 99% of people, including scientists now find this at best distasteful, unethical and plain unnecessary.

Sigh. . .. What does Joe Public have to do with anything? Click the link in Post #6, do some browsing, and let a little sunshine in. . ..
 
Sigh. . .. What does Joe Public have to do with anything? Click the link in Post #6, do some browsing, and let a little sunshine in. . ..

Joe Public probably pays, via federal taxes, at least in part, the wages of the AMNH collectors for a start, so some may be interested. Pretty arrogant statement you've made there if you think about it.

cheers, alan
 
I've stayed out of this discussion, until now.


Explain that to 'Joe public' who I'm sure would be totally bemused and horrified that this was done in the name of separating two 'species', surely this is trivial in the grand scheme, they're not curing cancer!....It is by it's very definition 'trivial'

Knowledge gained about the natural world, no matter how arcane it may appear, is never 'trivial'. Just because some cannot see a 'use' for that knowledge says less about the knowledge, and more about the person.

Dress it up as you will, 99% of people, including scientists now find this at best distasteful, unethical and plain unnecessary.

As someone who's entire research cannot be executed without "collecting" ( unless you can think of a way to study cephalopods at depths up to 4000m, or around geothermal vents, without "collecting" ) I find the intimation that, because the animals I study are killed as a necessary part of my studies, I'm unethical. I've yet to meet a scientist working with higher lifeforms that doesn't consider the welfare of their subjects as paramount. The difference between "Joe Public" and scientists is that scientists are concerned with the entire species, as opposed to bleating sentimentalist concern about an individual.
 
You've made a pretty sweeping statement there. Any caveats?

cheers, a

See the posts on all 3 threads on this subject and who stands on which side of the argument. While my statement may have been "sweeping" it still stands in the vast majority of cases. I have noticed that there has been little, or no concern about the plants, invertebrates or bats, any of which could be as rare as the Kingfisher, that were collected but, aren't they equally worthy of so much concern?
 
Joe Public probably pays, via federal taxes, at least in part, the wages of the AMNH collectors for a start, so some may be interested. Pretty arrogant statement you've made there if you think about it.

Actually, I have thought about it and have concluded that Joe Public has very little interest in these matters. If he had, he'd be making more of a fuss. Unlike some of the participants in this thread, I certainly don't pretend to speak for him--which would be the height of arrogance on my part as it is in theirs.
 
In a situation like this, I would normally strongly believe that an apology to Richard Klim, Bird Forum staff, and Bird Forum members was in order. Had I conducted a more expanded search, chances are such that I would not have even commented, would have just sadly gulped and moved on; let alone daring to start a whole new thread on the matter.

Be that as it may, Richard entitled his thread very matter-of-factly, in the Taxonomy and Nomenclature section, whereas the title I used, in the Bird News section, reflected the emotion of outrage. Therein lies the difference. Therein lies the reason why I must stand by my thread and how I introduced it.

I honestly didn’t.., …I honestly couldn’t… …totally believe that the account of the killing of the Moustached Kingfisher, by scientists, was true. I suspected it to be a hoax to turn bird lovers against science or to make some fool look stupid for posting it. Nevertheless, I was very much afraid of looking like a fool for believing a prank, and never even considered looking like a fool for being outraged at the possibility of story to being true.

I have spent much of my life trying to keep birds alive, and another substantial part of it trying to aid them in proliferation. In fact, I tried to keep an unfortunate common species nestling alive this spring for five hectic, sleepless, one-track-minded days and nights, and the sixth morning was met with sheer heartbreak and grief. I am not ashamed about how I feel about this killing.

The following comment, linked to in Richard’s thread, reflects my feelings about the killing.

“2.derekjmatthews
30 Sep 2015 19:10
I am appalled too both as an avian researcher and conservationist! There can be no justification in killing this bird ESPECIALLY once it was captured - photographic evidence was obviously collected and DNA could be collected through a blood sample. What chance does any conservation of a critically endangered species have if the so-called conservationists themselves have so little regard for an individual of the species. What possible justification can there be for killing this bird? There should be an outcry and demand for an explanation from the research and birding community!! Derek Matthews - Vancouver Avian Research Centre, Vancouver, BC, Canada”
http://www.birdwatch.co.uk/channel/newsitem.asp?c=11&cate=__16088

To be fair, I endeavored to really see the other side.., the other point of view.., the for-science thing; and I do understand and appreciate what Mysticete relayed to us in Richard’s thread:

“While I don't work on birds, I can say pretty much all of my research would be impossible without good collections of museum specimens. This in the past has included sampling bone and teeth for stable isotope analysis, coding of qualitative characters of the morphology, and measurements of bones.

This research has focused marine mammals, new specimens of which largely come from local strandings. However I have made use of important collections that were gathered as part of other scientific projects. The series of Caspian, Baikal, and Ringed Seals available in the Tokyo Museum of Nature and Science were critical to my dissertation research, and were all collected in the 1960s as part of research on radiation levels in marine mammals (or something like that). Had the researcher just collected tissue, it's likely my own research results would have been significantly affected, especially since those specimens had complete life history data which is often absent in older museum specimens or stuff that is dead on the beach.”
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=312128

Although I do believe that there is much value in Mysticete’s point of view, I must ask, how often is one man’s dissertation so a great benefit to the world that harmless, beautiful, and rare living things must be killed for that dissertation to be presented? One may disagree, but I say never: not in this day and age.

Further, during my day of searching for information concerning this matter, my eyes were momentarily blinded by the glaring possibility of money motivations, personal achievement motivations, and motivations of elevated status. The mental conception appeared as though my camera and I had tracked the flight of a soaring, gliding Turkey Vulture directly across a northern hemisphere mid-day July sun: https://eeb.ku.edu/robert-g-moyle . Just scroll down the list, and consider how one could.., …how one might… …become oblivious to the reasons why something became one’s life’s work in the first place. Possibly, compared to one more line on that resume, that bird’s life may not have compared..., …that bird’s life maybe just didn’t matter.
 
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fugl......you just reek of the arrogance displayed by the academic 'elite' with all your 'sighs' and judgments as to what people think or should think and your general aloofness. It says more apout you that you're stuck in a time warp, a groundhog day where you constantly replay the same loop when under scrutiny. Face it, the lobby is at your door and things will change once the Dinosaurs of academia are gone, adapt or die (that's not a personal threat btw!)

Chris, people are not aware or at least I don't think they are that Bats et al were also euthanized hence the apparent lack of concern..

The arguments for cephalopods is an altogether different one which bares no in depth comparison other than that they are killed, in legal parlance 'apples and oranges'

Andy
 
The casual elitist arrogance exhibited here is simply breathtaking, made all the more so by the complete and utter lack of awareness that such is the case or that it brings science into disrepute. Neither does it help to be quite so dismissive of those who ultimately pay the bill. I think few would object to this case if there were no alternatives (cf collection of cephalopods around geothermal vents), but that is clearly not the case here. In the past the collection of specimens like this served a purpose as it was the only sure and practical way to record the existence of a species and establish its relationships. As others have pointed out this is no longer the case and that it is still done in these circumstances smack more of habit than of need. Our society allows scientists an exemption from the rules that govern the rest of us (i.e. collecting rare or unusual specimens) on the basis that what they do contributes to a greater understanding or knowledge. In this instance no evidence that this is, was or will be the case has been presented so we mere mortals – the non-scientists who some seem so keen to disparage and hold in contempt – have every right to question what appears to be a needless abuse of this exemption. In this case it is arguable that far more could have been achieved by studying the live species the status of which (and thus the importance of this individual), let us not forget, remains unclear. I'm not a 'world birder', but before we sneer at those who are as "pursuing trivial personal goals” let us not forget that the money they put into many local communities has an equal or probably greater potential for saving rare species or habitats than a barrel load of collectors.
 
Added this post to the other thread (post 6 link) and have repeated it here .....

Just found and read this thread.
Like many of my (old) generation here in the UK my lifelong interest in birds, their habits and habitats came from collecting birds eggs as a boy in NE England. As my interest grew I read some of the older bird books written in the early part of the last century where just after a particular bird was first spotted, it was 'collected' usually by a retired Army officer it seemed! I was horrified, and confused, but consoled myself with the fact that the account was from an age of ignorance (and piss poor optics) long since past. It seems not.

I gave up egg collecting as I became older and wiser - I wish those collecting the birds would do likewise; indeed I must confess I thought they had. Although not an avian scientist, I am a scientist and engineer, and as has been said above I remain unconvinced everything to be gleaned from a dead bird could not today be gleaned from photographs, measurements and samples, and the bird released. Without this explanation this example is as reprehensible and abhorrent as the collecting the eggs of wild birds. Logical, not emotional .....
 
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