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Upton Warren (23 Viewers)

During this quiet birding month and the fact that we don't yet appear to have a decent hide at the flashes yet, it's always good to have a bit of a debate!
Following some comments regarding artificial Kingfisher perches I have done a little internet research regarding Sparrowhawks preying on these birds. As we know we are blessed with a good representation of Sparrowhawks (and other birds of prey) at Upton Warren, and my concern is whether the artificial perches we encourage Kingfishers to perch on increases the risk of a Kingfisher becoming prey to one of these raptors.
I think we all know that Sparrowhawks in particular don't hunt just Sparrows (we aren't blessed with those at UW!) but over 120 bird prey species have been recorded. They are not fussy and they are only about 30% successful in each strike.
Sparrowhawks do spend some time observing regularly used habitats to increase their chances and bird tables are of course a favourite hunting ground for them, so by creating out in the open perches are we in fact increasing the risk of Kingfishers getting caught?
More often than not I see them perched on reeds and branches within reeds where there is more natural cover. I must admit I've not seen a Sparrowhawk have a go at a Kingfisher at UW. But it only takes a couple of strikes, and we only probably have 2 or 3 Kingfishers so is prevention better than cure?
So, to my internet research - nothing substantial to back this up, other than the odd report of a Sparrowhawk having a go at a Kingfisher and/or Kingfisher feathers found in the nest of Sparrowhawks.
I'd be interested in any comments and indeed observations.

That's a really interesting post Gert, I had never considered the possible effects of predation on kingfishers. I too have just done a quick search and there seems to be no published papers with access to consult. Personally I do not condone any kind of anthropomorphic intervention that is purely done to provide edification to people.

The only reason perches should be provided for kingfishers should be to aid them in their pursuit of a meal. If a photographer cannot capture a natural shot then maybe they should'nt be in the game.

It will be interesting to see if anybody has any feedback with regards to sparrowhawk attacks.
 
My only comment, at this juncture, on Gert's offering (apart from agreeing that it it is an emotive subject) is that I thought Sprawk attack rates were nearer 10% succesful. Don't ask me where I read that, but it tends to reflect the efforts I witness regularly in my garden.
 
From my limited knowledge,
But i was under the impression that Kingfishers actually have a vile taste, and other than to look quite nice, a Kingfishers plumage is to warn predators that they dont taste very nice, similar to bugs (Ladybirds, Butterflies etc), Therefore it would be quite odd for one to be taken (although that obviously happens!) Not sure where i read that, but i do remember reading that somewhere.
However, i do agree that a perch shouldnt just be provided for the sake of a Photo (No-offense to the photographers on the forum)
And in UW's case, with the close proximity to the Feeders at the Moors, would a Sparrowhawk tend to frequent the feeder area more for tit's/Finches/Buntings etc as it would seem an easier target for a predator? Rather than going for a comparativly hard to catch Kingfisher?

Thats what ive witnessed on the patch and thats just my thoughts, and in a true A-level style
Discuss? :p
Im open to debate :)
MB
 
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From my limited knowledge,
But i was under the impression that Kingfishers actually have a vile taste, and other than to look quite nice, a Kingfishers plumage is to warn predators that they dont taste very nice, similar to bugs (Ladybirds, Butterflies etc), Therefore it would be quite odd for one to be taken (although that obviously happens!) Not sure where i read that, but i do remember reading that somewhere.
However, i do agree that a perch shouldnt just be provided for the sake of a Photo (No-offense to the photographers on the forum)
And in UW's case, with the close proximity to the Feeders at the Moors, would a Sparrowhawk tend to frequent the feeder area more for tit's/Finches/Buntings etc as it would seem an easier target for a predator? Rather than going for a comparativly hard to catch Kingfisher?

Thats what ive witnessed on the patch and thats just my thoughts, and in a true A-level style
Discuss? :p
Im open to debate :)
MB

Some interesting points there MB, the point you raise about the feeders is what's referred to as optimal foraging, and you are entirely correct, predators seldom expend energy for a smaller gain, they choose to maximise their net energy intake. Having said that the sparrowhawk is a generalist and will take advantage of most prey items that it encounters.

Interesting point about the "vile taste" I hav'nt come across that before, if it is true I wonder why it would be so. I imagine the reason for their bright colours is all to do with fitness, if an individual who stands out so much and avoids predation then he is a good mate for the opposite sex, sexual selection plays a big part in the avian world. Also being so irredescant I would imagine they are quite well camouflaged when being viewed from under the water surface?
 
My only comment, at this juncture, on Gert's offering (apart from agreeing that it it is an emotive subject) is that I thought Sprawk attack rates were nearer 10% succesful. Don't ask me where I read that, but it tends to reflect the efforts I witness regularly in my garden.

On the flip side if you sit in the West Hide at the Moors Pool you will note a Sprawk pass at the feeders every 20 to 30 minutes; over the course of say 8 hours of daylight this time of year with a 10% success rate that could be 2-3 passerines taken per day.
 
On the flip side if you sit in the West Hide at the Moors Pool you will note a Sprawk pass at the feeders every 20 to 30 minutes; over the course of say 8 hours of daylight this time of year with a 10% success rate that could be 2-3 passerines taken per day.
Apparently between 10 to 50% depending on time of year, vegetative cover and if breeding or not. Further clicks on the interweb reveal attacks on Kingfisher are recorded, there's even a video of a Kingfisher on YouTube apparently watching a raptor flying over apparently unconcerned !
My take on this is that if we are going to have perch posts they should be as close to vegetative cover as possible. The same for feeding stations which are already the case.
 
Interesting discussion Gert. As one of the photographers I thought I would stick my oar in! ;) I have been watching the KFs for 3or4 years at UW, in fact it is one of the reasons why I have got to be a regular at the reserve. In that time I have only seen one example of a Sprawk apparently chase a KF without success. I have heard like MB that KF flesh is unpalatable but i've also heard of more than one account of Mink digging into nest burrows & taking all the young so they may be far more of a threat than Sprawks. I don't totally agree that perches should not be placed in the open so that photographers & or birders get better views. Just watch the KFs over a long period & it is the 'false' perches that they prefer too use. In my experience it has usually been the juveniles who seem to use reedheads etc until they get more experienced then swop to the perches. Presumably that means that they find those perches very beneficial to fishing otherwise why would they? I also believe that being out in the open gives them a better chance of spotting any potential threat from the air. I think there may be more than 2 or 3 birdsaround the reserve as I saw at least two different adult females + 1 adult male + at least 4 juveniles during the summer. I know they drive the juveniles off but I'm wondering if it may be that there is enough water/fishing to support more than one adult pair.

Another reason for having the perches that does not directly benefit the birds but could in the long term is the no of birders & photographers who I know have been encouraged to come to the reserve just because they could have a good chance of seeing KFs. Some of which buy permits & some that have joined the trust or have renewed their membership like me. So potentially bringing more money in for future work on the reserves. Another reason could be extra cost-free publicity for the trust & particularly UW as people pass on their good vibes about the reserves. Also I use my photos to the same end. Some have been used in the trust mag & I put many on flickr with the info about the reserves & have had people come to UW from that and the photos that get the most hits & commments on my flickr site-Kingfishers! I also hope that kids might be encouraged to come to UW too after seeing my or someone else's pics as they may become future conservationists/members/volunteers etc.

I feel that reseves shopuld be in the first instance about the wildlife but they also have to work for people too otherwise they could very soon become places where joe public can't go & feel comfortable & then could resent the money spent on them & not contribute. Just my opinion feel free to argue with it.;)

Blimey, that turned into my first novel very quickly. I really look forward to the rest of the discussion as I'm constanly learning from this forum & from all the folks at UW.

And just to add that you are right in that every change that is made is looked at from every angle!

Rob
 
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Interesting points regarding artificial Kingfisher posts. My personal viewpoint is that they are generally probably an overall benefit - for the birds and birders alike. However, I don't see them as a priority and, given limited resources, there are much more worthy things for volunteers to be spending time on - managing habitat, for instance. I realise they don't take much time to put in place but they can get blown over or knocked down by cattle. If they do, please bear with us - it's not like the birds are going to die because of it or something serious like that.

As for Kingfisher photography, surely they've been done to death by now. I personally find most shots a bit of a cliché to be honest (with a few exceptions) - but that's just my opinion;). I'm usually much more impressed when someone gets decent shots of difficult species like Groppers, for instance. Much more skillful and more interesting than seeing yet another shot of a Kingfisher posing on an artificial post.:t:
 
Actually, Phil, the hide on Spiggie Loch puts our current flashes hide to shame! ;)

The 'hide' on Spiggie is actually a boat-shed! Mind you, it would make a better hide than what we have at the moment ;)

On the Kingfisher perch debate - I'd have thought that a quick word with one of the volunteer wardens would have been sufficient rather than a rambling e-mail to the Trust. |=)|
 
I agree, Mike, but unfortunately, my assurance that said perches had probably been knocked over by grazing cattle and that they would be re-erected when work parties were scheduled to be operating in the particular area fell on deaf ears, with the members who recently decided to take me to task over lack of perches.
 
The 'hide' on Spiggie is actually a boat-shed! Mind you, it would make a better hide than what we have at the moment ;)

..... |=)|

Oh right, I wondered why we never ventured in there! Assumed it was a hide due to the signage depicting some wildfowl outside it. Looked like it could make a good hide though. 8-P
 
With regard to kingfisher perches and Sparrowhawk predation.

A reference to MB's posting about the Kinfishers inability to offer itself as a tasty square meal, may be found in the AA Readers Digest Book of British birds P178.

"It's bright colouring is a defence adaptation: predators have learnt to leave the bird alone because its flesh is foul tasting"

I've seen the Sprawk take many small passerines from seed feeders but never a Kingfisher.
Mike.
 
With regard to kingfisher perches and Sparrowhawk predation.

A reference to MB's posting about the Kinfishers inability to offer itself as a tasty square meal, may be found in the AA Readers Digest Book of British birds P178.

"It's bright colouring is a defence adaptation: predators have learnt to leave the bird alone because its flesh is foul tasting"

I've seen the Sprawk take many small passerines from seed feeders but never a Kingfisher.
Mike.
Hi Mike
perhaps its their fishy diet helps with that theory, we all know how putrid rotten fish is. The question of mink digging out nests doesn't hold much weight as they eat anything and everything.
 
Interesting points regarding artificial Kingfisher posts. My personal viewpoint is that they are generally probably an overall benefit - for the birds and birders alike. However, I don't see them as a priority and, given limited resources, there are much more worthy things for volunteers to be spending time on - managing habitat, for instance. I realise they don't take much time to put in place but they can get blown over or knocked down by cattle. If they do, please bear with us - it's not like the birds are going to die because of it or something serious like that.

As for Kingfisher photography, surely they've been done to death by now. I personally find most shots a bit of a cliché to be honest (with a few exceptions) - but that's just my opinion;). I'm usually much more impressed when someone gets decent shots of difficult species like Groppers, for instance. Much more skillful and more interesting than seeing yet another shot of a Kingfisher posing on an artificial post.:t:


Ah but to many, many people Kingfishers ARE a difficult species! I've met people in the hides that were overjoyed to see & get a pic on a perch having never seen one in their whole life. It's all relative. ;) Anyway what's a Gropper?

Rob
 
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Ah but to many, many people Kingfishers ARE a difficult species! I've met people in the hides that were overjoyed to see & get a pic on a perch having never seen one in their whole life. It's all relative. ;) Anyway what's a Gropper?

Rob
Hi Rob, I agree that away from Upton K/F's can be difficult and I suppose that they are relatively easy to see at UW. The perches in front of the concrete hide fit in with the surrounding reeds and enhance the habitat and experience there. The perches in front of the East hide are a bit isolated and for photos are nowhere as close as the concrete hide. I think the best photos of K/F's I have seen have all been shot from the concrete hide. As a birder, I always take time to look at them how ever many times I see them they are always a pleasure to look at....Great to see they had a good breeding season. A larger hole in the sand martin bank might encourage them;)
Gropper, is short for grasshopper warbler..a bit of a skulker to say the least.
:t:John
 
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From my point of view the kingfisher posts certainly add value. Personally I have more than enough KF images and rarely take a shot of it anymore unless conditions are exceptional.

It does though present a wonderful opportunity to observe them at very close quarters and I have witnessed them regurgitating pellets and tossing their catch in the air to turn it round, sights that I'm not sure I would otherwise have seen.

I can also recall being in the concrete hide when a party of disabled children came in and witnessed the KF on it's perch, great excitement was had by all.
I'm not sure that the installation of perches need be prioritised, as I see it it's a question of pushing a stick into the mud - job done!

Rob, nice to see that you're back in circulation, let me know if you find a Gropper:t:
 
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