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The eastern gray squirrel is better adapted to oak forests than native red squirrels (1 Viewer)

MarkGelbart said:
https://markgelbart.wordpress.com/2017/01/03/the-super-squirrel/
. . .Gray squirrels are a better ecological fit for European oak forests than native European red squirrels.
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A similar point can be made about any invasive species. The question is, what to do about it, just roll with the punches or try to preserve the native biota by eradicating the invader (or trying to)? Me, I vote for the latter whenever there's a reasonable chance of success. To my mind, taking the "long view" in such circumstances is a cop out.
 
fugl said:
A similar point can be made about any invasive species. The question is, what to do about it, just roll with the punches or try to preserve the native biota by eradicating the invader (or trying to)? Me, I vote for the latter whenever there's a reasonable chance of success. To my mind, taking the "long view" in such circumstances is a cop out.
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In this particular case its also rather like saying Europeans were a better ecological fit than Native Americans on the Great Plains - as measles etc, the US Cavalry and the buffalo hunters hammered them into near extinction.

When the first thing an invader does is roll your population back with a lethal plague its difficult to be certain about ecological advantages.

John
 
Farnboro John said:
In this particular case its also rather like saying Europeans were a better ecological fit than Native Americans on the Great Plains - as measles etc, the US Cavalry and the buffalo hunters hammered them into near extinction.

When the first thing an invader does is roll your population back with a lethal plague its difficult to be certain about ecological advantages.
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Indeed, posing the question in strictly "ecological" terms is both an absurdity and a tautology in this and similar cases.
 
Gray Squirrels in Britain were also massively helped by the near-complete eradication of Pine Martens by game shooting interests - Pine Martens are highly effective predators on Grays, but can't catch the more agile and lighter weight Reds easily. When a Pine Marten chases a Red, the squirrel just runs onto thin twigs where the marten can't follow; heavier Grays can't do that and get caught.

Where Pine Martens are recolonising with better protection, Gray Squirrels disappear completely.
 
Correction for the blog article: the scientific names are Sciurus and Tamiasciurus, respectively (not "Scirius" etc.).


Nutcracker said:
Gray Squirrels in Britain were also massively helped by the near-complete eradication of Pine Martens by game shooting interests - Pine Martens are highly effective predators on Grays, but can't catch the more agile and lighter weight Reds easily. When a Pine Marten chases a Red, the squirrel just runs onto thin twigs where the marten can't follow; heavier Grays can't do that and get caught.

Where Pine Martens are recolonising with better protection, Gray Squirrels disappear completely.
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Incidentally, the native ranges of American Pine Marten and Eastern Gray Squirrel hardly overlap...
 
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fugl said:
A similar point can be made about any invasive species. The question is, what to do about it, just roll with the punches or try to preserve the native biota by eradicating the invader (or trying to)? Me, I vote for the latter whenever there's a reasonable chance of success. To my mind, taking the "long view" in such circumstances is a cop out.
Click to expand...

Why do you vote for eradicating an invader?

Why does 1 species have more of a right to exist than another?
 
MarkGelbart said:
Why do you vote for eradicating an invader?

Why does 1 species have more of a right to exist than another?
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Because the invader itself is eradicating another species that does have a right to exist in its homeland. Gray Squirrel is not at risk in its native area, whereas Red Squirrel is at risk in its native area, due to misguided human action.
 
MarkGelbart said:
Why do you vote for eradicating an invader?

Why does 1 species have more of a right to exist than another?
Click to expand...

It's not a matter of "rights" but of the kind of world we want to live in, one with a rich and varied biota with different species in different places or one dominated by a handful of invasives. We humans are the only ethical agents in the game and we get to decide. As I said before, leaving such cases to the blind forces of nature to deal with is simply a cop out.

How about mosquitoes do they have a "right" to exist? Microbes?
 
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fugl said:
It's not a matter of "rights" but of the kind of world we want to live in, one with a rich and varied biota with different species in different places or one dominated by a handful of invasives. We humans are the only ethical agents in the game and we get to decide. As I said before, leaving such cases to the blind forces of nature to deal with is simply a cop out.

How about mosquitoes do they have a "right" to exist? Microbes?
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Invasive species increase diversity. Introducing new species into different environments increases the numbers of species in that region.

Without microbes all advanced life on earth would become extinct. (Most vertebrates couldn't digest their food without the bacteria in their guts.) They are the base of the chain of life. They exist whether you like it or not.
 
Nutcracker said:
Because the invader itself is eradicating another species that does have a right to exist in its homeland. Gray Squirrel is not at risk in its native area, whereas Red Squirrel is at risk in its native area, due to misguided human action.
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It's not eradicating red squirrels. It is outcompeting them in an environment where it is better adapted.

Red squirrels still have the edge in boreal forests.

Anyway, why does the red squirrel have a right to exist?

Millions of species have gone extinct because they were less adaptable to their environment than other species.

That's why they call it survival of the fittest.
 
MarkGelbart said:
Invasive species increase diversity. Introducing new species into different environments increases the numbers of species in that region.
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Temporarily. Usually they start to push out, or even exterminate, one or even several of the native species. That's why they're called "invasive".


Without microbes all advanced life on earth would become extinct. (Most vertebrates couldn't digest their food without the bacteria in their guts.) They are the base of the chain of life. They exist whether you like it or not.
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Well duh. Obviously.


MarkGelbart said:
It's not eradicating red squirrels. It is outcompeting them in an environment where it is better adapted.
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You're taking the current absence of Pine Martens, Wildcats, and Goshawks in those areas for granted. At least the former is making a comeback in Britain/Ireland, and it was never absent from most areas of the continent - for example, we don't have any Gray Squirrels where I live, and should they ever arrive, I'll tip off the hunters in my acquaintance. We also still have Goshawks here, and they're already adapting to urban parks (like foxes and Wild Boar, they're now easier to see in Berlin than in the countryside). The European Red Squirrel has adapted well to deciduous forests where their natural predators also exist.


Anyway, why does the red squirrel have a right to exist?
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Because I say so. Also because it's cute and therefore popular with everyone here.

Anyway, I'm surprised you seem to care so little about American Red Squirrels and Western Gray Squirrels, who, at least according to your article, are also facing the same problem.
 
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MarkGelbart said:
Invasive species increase diversity. Introducing new species into different environments increases the numbers of species in that region.
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On the contrary, invasive species decrease global diversity by making the flora and fauna of different regions more similar. For the clearest example, consider the large number of island species that have become extinct following the arrival of humans and the introduction of non-natives such as rats, cats, goats, pigs etc. These species were already common and numerous elsewhere, but the island endemics thy replaced were found nowhere else - how is that a gain in diversity?
 
MarkGelbart said:
Invasive species increase diversity. Introducing new species into different environments increases the numbers of species in that region.
Click to expand...

Balderdash!

MarkGelbart said:
Without microbes all advanced life on earth would become extinct. (Most vertebrates couldn't digest their food without the bacteria in their guts.) They are the base of the chain of life. They exist whether you like it or not.
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Well, as Sangahyando so eloquently put it, duh! What I was asking, which I find it hard to believe you didn't realize, was whether individual species of microbes have a "right" to exist--certain disease pathogens for example--not the whole multi-kingdom kit and caboodle. If not, at what level of the scala naturae do you draw the line?

How about noxious insects? You against attempts to eradicate Aedes aegypti in Florida, for example, on the grounds that the species has a "right to exist"?
 
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This talk of 'out competing' and being more 'adaptable' overlooks the fact that this was an introduced species, it's not like it's a natural range expansion. There is the small matter of the Atlantic, naturally dividing the two so without man, the two would never have crossed paths.


A
 
andyadcock said:
This talk of 'out competing' and being more 'adaptable' overlooks the fact that this was an introduced species, it's not like it's a natural range expansion. There is the small matter of the Atlantic, naturally dividing the two so without man, the two would never have crossed paths.


A
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True, that's another aspect we've left out so far.
 
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