JHDraytonbassettpits
Well-known member
There's a difference bewteen species and subspecies.
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Pipit spp, Worlds End , Wales ,UK , in May (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter albional
- Start date
There's a difference bewteen species and subspecies.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
I don't have the moult guide to hand-but where is it stated that there are any moult differences in the dubiously separated forms of Mipit?
JHDraytonbassettpits
Well-known member
In Chris's mind I believe.
chris butterworth
aka The Person Named Above
Yes, because you didn't appear to grasp what I said in my first post. The fact that there may be no information available on moult in Meadow Pipit from Iceland does not mean you can pluck facts from elsewhere and try to shoehorn them to fit your 'theory'.
Meadow Pipit Anthus pratensis is a single species, it's got nothing to do with what I say, or don't say. They are the same species wherever in their distribution they occur / breed. If you are going to involve yourself in discussions about taxa and moult then please, please try to understand basic biological terminology.
I don't know, and have never claimed to know / believe, what the moult sequence of Meadow Pipit breeding in Iceland and western Greenland is. Dave Norman, in his article, states quite clearly he didn't know where the birds came from, only that there was a possibility they came from Iceland etc.
What would "be more in line with those at Runcorn"? That we don't know ( as stated )? Or ......?
Do you also appear on Birdforum as "Morninglight" and "Sushil"?
Jane Turner
Well-known member
They are still distinct and widely recognised/accepted taxa either side of the decision to call them species as opposed to subspecies.
*Looking for a brick wall to bang my head against*
chris butterworth
aka The Person Named Above
I'd leave the "interesting substances" alone , if I were you. Where have I said there was any difference? You're the one that 'sees' all kinds of differences for 'Icelandic' Mipit, from claiming Mipit with bold supercillia to posting articles about moult sequences. I''ll state clearly, and unambiguously my opinion. My belief is that Mipit are monotyipc. Mipit, like many monotypic species, may ( MAY ) differ in moult sequences, depending on whether they originate from the core area or the periphery. On present knowledge it is not known if Mipit breeding on Iceland are identifiable by moult or plumage. There may be ( MAY be ) some differences in moult timing but, we don't know. I hope this clarifies my position for you.
chris butterworth
aka The Person Named Above
Are you sure? You seem to have difficulty with the terms. To clarify your misconception ( and pointless diversion ) about Gulls.
1. First, there was 'just' Herring Gull.
2. Taxonomic work was carried out and "Herring Gull" became Herring Gull and Yellow-legged Gull.
3. More work was carried out and it was found that "Yellow-legged Gull" was Yellow-legged and Caspian Gull
4. After even more work "Herring Gull" became Eurasian and American Herring Gull.
What has happened is certain 'sub-species' of "Herring Gull" have been elevated to 'species' level. The species, as presently accepted were always present, just not recognised as such. "Seemples"
chris butterworth
aka The Person Named Above
JHDraytonbassettpits
Well-known member
Species and subspecies were defined by much cleverer people than yourself so take the argument up with them
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JHDraytonbassettpits
Well-known member
Please clarify your term leave the interesting substances alone so I can then take the next appropriate action.
Mark Lew1s
My real name is Mark Lewis
Just when we all thought this thread couldn't get any funnier...!
chris butterworth
aka The Person Named Above
So, what have we learned?
1. Some Meadow Pipits can have a strong supercillium. Such birds can, and do appear in various populations. [ Most of us knew that. ]
2. All Meadow Pipits have a pre-breeding moult. The timing may vary. [ Perhaps only ringers knew that, but it is mentioned in The Handbook, BWP, 'Svensson' etc. ]
3. Meadow Pipit migration has a double peak. The latter coinciding with White Wagtail passage in northwest England. There is a possibility that these birds may be en route to the same breeding areas, but there is no hard proof. [ Until there is conformation, either way, anything else is 'blue sky thinking' ]
4. There is a suggestion that autumnal passage birds that are more brightly marked may originate in Iceland, but that is only opinion. Yet again, there is no hard proof. As Meadow Pipit are, almost, infinitely variable in regards to overall colour only a very long series of controlled birds from Iceland would prove, or disprove this. [ ditto ]
5. Some people don't half get ar*ed.
6. 52 posts and ........
Don't you just love BF. :t:
1. Some Meadow Pipits can have a strong supercillium. Such birds can, and do appear in various populations. [ Most of us knew that. ]
2. All Meadow Pipits have a pre-breeding moult. The timing may vary. [ Perhaps only ringers knew that, but it is mentioned in The Handbook, BWP, 'Svensson' etc. ]
3. Meadow Pipit migration has a double peak. The latter coinciding with White Wagtail passage in northwest England. There is a possibility that these birds may be en route to the same breeding areas, but there is no hard proof. [ Until there is conformation, either way, anything else is 'blue sky thinking' ]
4. There is a suggestion that autumnal passage birds that are more brightly marked may originate in Iceland, but that is only opinion. Yet again, there is no hard proof. As Meadow Pipit are, almost, infinitely variable in regards to overall colour only a very long series of controlled birds from Iceland would prove, or disprove this. [ ditto ]
5. Some people don't half get ar*ed.
6. 52 posts and ........
Don't you just love BF. :t:
Teamscotch
Well-known member
I saw this well supercilliured pipit today...it must be an Iceland, right?
François Doyen
Well-known member
I think we just need to study the food British and Icelandic meadow pipit like the most and the possible small difference might prove and explain the difference in supercillium?
shhh
Well-known member
it does show how varied pipits can be - that could almost be a dunnock :eek!:
Phil Andrews
It's only Rock and Roller but I like it
I think we just need to study the food British and Icelandic meadow pipit like the most and the possible small difference might prove and explain the difference in supercillium?
I think the supercillium on Icelandic pipits is mimicing a the slim grass stems only found in the suburbs of Reykjavik whose from which the pipits pick off insects.
I am on the right thread?
dantheman
Bah humbug
Think the differences might come down to a surprise component of their diet - much as Flamingos go pink from certain enzymes when eating the shrimps in their environment, the apparent stronger supercilium and occasional rosy wash of Icelandic Pipits is almost certainly a reaction to the unique surface morphology and gustatory inputs of their food sources.
ref BB: Crustaceans in the Icelandic Meadow Pipit Diet
ref BB: Crustaceans in the Icelandic Meadow Pipit Diet
Rotherbirder
Well-known member
There may be something in what you say here Chris. Similarities in grammar, (mis-)spelling, complete lack of comprehension and respect for others who know something of what they are talking about! He/they flit around the forum from thread to thread causing chaos, I'm sure of it. The recent dodgy Wigeon sp fiasco and the priceless Meadow/Water/Rock/Scandinavian Rock Pipit saga have doubtless caused no end of confusion to budding birders. No-one that calls himself a birder could be so dogmatic, pompous, immature and lacking in knowledge of birds and birding in real-life - or could they?
Phil Andrews
It's only Rock and Roller but I like it
:clap::clap: (you need to click on the link to appreciate this)
chris butterworth
aka The Person Named Above
I think we just need to study the food British and Icelandic meadow pipit like the most and the possible small difference might prove and explain the difference in supercillium?
You're a bad, bad lad, Francois. :-O
