Some Binoculars with good Eye Relief, and a few other notes.. (1 Viewer)

Alexis Powell · Sep 22, 2017

I always wear a wide-brimmed hat when birding, or when outdoors in the sun.

I also have prescription polarized sunglasses, which are great for driving, fishing, and eye comfort. However, I find that can't wear them while birding because I don't seem to be able to recognize birds anymore while looking through them. It's like they are kryptonite that kills my 6th spidey sense super power ability to recognize birds (often before they've even entered my conscious awareness), and so I have to study birds deliberately to make IDs. I've experienced this problem for years and haven't overcome it. Have done a lot of birding in the intensely harshly sunny deserts and seashores of the Middle East without sunglasses for that reason.

--AP

wdc · Sep 22, 2017

Alexis Powell said:
I always wear a wide-brimmed hat when birding, or when outdoors in the sun.

I also have prescription polarized sunglasses, which are great for driving, fishing, and eye comfort. However, I find that can't wear them while birding because I don't seem to be able to recognize birds anymore while looking through them. It's like they are kryptonite that kills my 6th spidey sense super power ability to recognize birds (often before they've even entered my conscious awareness), and so I have to study birds deliberately to make IDs. I've experienced this problem for years and haven't overcome it. Have done a lot of birding in the intensely harshly sunny deserts and seashores of the Middle East without sunglasses for that reason.

--AP

That's a very interesting issue. What confounds me is when a bird is out of context. For example, if I see a California Towhee in a tree, I have to think twice about it before I can ID it. If its on the ground, I get it right away.

An issue specific to polarized lenses is that it cuts reflection. When I paint water, it actually eliminates information that makes water 'look' like water, specifically reflection and the complex color interaction of sky with color depth of the water, etc. It may be easier on the eyes, but it doesn't help when you try to paint a convincing image. Perhaps there is information being lost that unconsciously helps you ID the bird.

Bill

bluespiderweb · Sep 22, 2017

Art in nature

wdc said:
That's a very interesting issue. What I've found confounding is when a bird is out of context. For example, if I see a California Towhee in a tree, I have to think twice about it before I can ID it. If its on the ground, I get it right away.

Another issue specific to polarized lenses is that it cuts reflection. When I paint water, it actually eliminates information that makes water 'look' like water, specifically reflection and the complex color interaction of sky with color depth of the water, etc. It may be easier on the eyes, but it doesn't help when you try to paint a convincing image. Perhaps there is information being lost that unconsciously helps you ID the bird.

Bill

Well, I am no artist (though I have wanted to be at times), but have admired many artits' lifelike rendition of water, that makes the painting so special, or not, depending on how it is conveyed. So yeah, Bill, that is an interesting point about wearing polarized sunglasses and bird ID'ing. I imagine it can have an effect-take the grackel or starling-will you see those lovely iridescent colors when wearing polarized sunglasses, I wonder?

wdc · Sep 22, 2017

bluespiderweb said:
I imagine it can have an effect-take the grackel or starling-will you see those lovely iridescent colors when wearing polarized sunglasses, I wonder?

I will try to find that out this weekend. There's a gang of Starlings at one of my local birding spots. Easy to spot because they all hang out, along with the Acorn Woodpeckers, in a stand of half dead pines, the woodpeckers squawking and the Starlings whistling and gurgling in a fashion that reminds me of someone searching for a radio station with an analog dial... (I'm dating myself with that one).
I was out yesterday morning, and at one spot I ran into this busy flock of small birds working their way through the foliage on either side of the trail.... Bushtits, Wrentits, Chickadees, Kinglet, Bewick's Wren, Song Sparrow, Junco... I saw all of those birds inside of a minute or 2, just by swiveling around. One that stuck out was a White Breasted Nuthatch that was moving with the Chickadees. A bird with a cool grey back can appear strikingly blue in morning shadow, due to the added ambient blue of the sky, and it really jumped out. I think polarized glasses would have reduced the amount of perceived blue on that bird. Not to say it would render it unrecognizable, but it would certainly alter the color temperature contrast relative to its (less blue local color) surroundings and companions, not to mention the visceral aesthetic jolt one experiences in moments like that.

I am really surmising here, but as I do wear sunglasses on long hikes and such for a very good reason, I am also well aware of how it affects my environment with regard to complex color behavior that is dependent on reflection to manifest itself, which is why I don't use them when I paint.

Research!

Bill

elkcub · Sep 23, 2017

I've tried polarized prescription eyeglasses with binoculars and found the combination doesn't work very well. To me there is significant loss of brightness and resolution. On the other hand, photochromic eyeglasses work much better. The reason, I suspect, is that the lenses don't darken as much directly behind the eyecups, while functioning as effective sunglasses elsewhere. This selective darkening is due to UV having been eliminated before it can exit the eye lens, minimized the photochromic response in the interface area.

Ed

wdc · Sep 23, 2017

elkcub said:
The reason, I suspect, is that the lenses don't darken as much directly behind the eyecups, while functioning as effective sunglasses elsewhere. This selective darkening is due to UV having been eliminated before it can exit the eye lens, minimized the photochromic response in the interface area.

Ed

Ed, When you're birding with photochromic lenses, do you actually see a brighter spot on the eyeglass lens where the binocular has been held against it?

elkcub · Sep 24, 2017

Hello WDC,

Yes, I do see a brighter spot. This morning I did a quick experiment with my close-fitting photochromic glasses and an EMO pocket magnifier system to simulate a binocular-telescope. Fig 1 shows the setup with the glasses darkened in open shade. Fig. 2 shows the clear spot corresponding to the portion shielded from IR. Full binoculars would block more IR, because of their greater glass thickness, but this is the general situation. It takes 15-20 seconds for the lightening response to take place in the eyeglasses, and the spot persists for some time after the instrument is removed.

I also did a second experiment, just using the objective section of the EMO, which has only two thin lenses. The setup is shown in Fig 3, and the lightening response in Fig. 4. It would appear that the objective alone doesn't have enough glass to block IR fully (note the annular ring around a darker center corresponding to the lens.) Fig. 5 shows the persistence after 15-20 sec.

Ed

wdc · Sep 25, 2017

elkcub said:
Hello WDC,

Yes, I do see a brighter spot. This morning I did a quick experiment with my close-fitting photochromic glasses and an EMO pocket magnifier system to simulate a binocular-telescope. Fig 1 shows the setup with the glasses darkened in open shade. Fig. 2 shows the clear spot corresponding to the portion shielded from IR. Full binoculars would block more IR, because of their greater glass thickness, but this is the general situation. It takes 15-20 seconds for the lightening response to take place in the eyeglasses, and the spot persists for some time after the instrument is removed.

I also did a second experiment, just using the objective section of the EMO, which has only two thin lenses. The setup is shown in Fig 3, and the lightening response in Fig. 4. It would appear that the objective alone doesn't have enough glass to block IR fully (note the annular ring around a darker center corresponding to the lens.) Fig. 5 shows the persistence after 15-20 sec.

Ed

Hi Ed, Interesting demonstration. I was imagining that if you were walking about while birding, and periodically using the binoculars, that the amount of time they aren't held against the glasses, would effectively darken the entire lens, but perhaps not. Thanks for doing the experiment and posting the photos.

-Bill

elkcub · Sep 25, 2017

wdc said:
Hi Ed, Interesting demonstration. I was imagining that if you were walking about while birding, and periodically using the binoculars, that the amount of time they aren't held against the glasses, would effectively darken the entire lens, but perhaps not. Thanks for doing the experiment and posting the photos.

-Bill

Bill,

I'm sure you're correct. There is a delay for the glasses to bleach, and another for them to darken. However, for extended observation (e.g., 15+ sec.) there is enough bleaching to improve image clarity. It ain't perfect, but I find it better than standard sunglasses or no sun protection at all.

Thanks,
Ed

gcole · Sep 26, 2017

wdc said:
Here's a list of binoculars that either worked for me, or didn't, along with some brief comments on other aspects of their performance. This is NOT a comprehensive test or in depth review. I leave that to others with far more time and experience. I urge anyone to try before they buy, if possible. It will speed up the process immensely.
————————
Good fit:

Maven B3 6 x 30 ER: 18.3
Tried as a demo unit and returned. Enjoyed the size, weight, view, and mechanicals, but wanted an 8x bin. The 8x30 Maven B3 does not have sufficient ER for me, so passed on that.

I need to express my thanks to the many folks on this forum who have so generously shared their own experiences with a variety of equipment, and also took the time to compare eye relief amongst the binoculars they owned.

Bird away,

Bill

Bill , You said you enjoyed the view of the Maven B3 6 x30. Can I assume the eye relief was good/worked with your glasses but you did not want them only because they did not provide enough power ? I ask because I also wear the same type of glasses but have hesitated purchasing the Maven 6x30 thinking the eye relief would fall short ..... gwen

wdc · Sep 26, 2017

gcole said:
Bill , You said you enjoyed the view of the Maven B3 6 x30. Can I assume the eye relief was good/worked with your glasses but you did not want them only because they did not provide enough power ? I ask because I also wear the same type of glasses but have hesitated purchasing the Maven 6x30 thinking the eye relief would fall short ..... gwen

Hi Gwen, The eye relief spec of 18.3 on the Maven was enough to accommodate me. For almost all the binoculars I've tried, a spec of 18 or more has worked, with a few exceptions (Opticron Traveller @ 19mm).

I had a demo pair of the Mavens for a week or 2, and in casual observations from the kitchen table, looking around the yard, and at the bird feeder, I realized that the 8x power binoculars I owned showed more detail and texture on close range objects than what 6x could provide. In addition, a 6 x 30 Leupold BX-1 Yosemite porro I own was brighter when observing in low light. So, though I really liked the package... size, weight, build quality, and view, I didn't think I needed another 6x binocular, especially when the one I had, although clunky, and with a lumpy feeling focuser, showed a slightly brighter view.

That said, I would give the Mavens a try, if you are curious, as their demo program is a convenient way to get them in your hands for a few weeks. I'd also recommend you try the Opticron Traveller BGA Ed 8x32 to see if it fits you, if you're after that size of a bin. It is apparently built on the same chassis as the Maven. Just because they didn't fit me, doesn't mean they won't fit you. With the Opticrons, you'll get more aperture and power in a similar size package, though perhaps not quite as refined as the Maven.

Bill

The-Wanderer · Sep 26, 2017

I am more than a little surprised that an Opticron with a stated eye relief of 19mm would not fit an eye glass wearer when a bin with a shorter eye relief did.

This is because of the following:

"We measure from the outmost/top edge of the eyepiece in its lowest position (twisted down or folded down) to the point at which the exit pupil diameter is measured to be at it's maximum/optimum e.g. 5.25mm for an 8x42 binocular. This is done using a device with an extendable tube which projects the exit pupil onto a semi-translucent sheet with a scale.

HTH

Cheers, Pete
__________________
Pete Gamby
Sales & Marketing Manager - Opticron"

I don't see how eye relief can be measured longer than Opticron's method. Maybe the axial recess to the glass is materially different between the bins and so this measure is also needed.

wdc · Sep 26, 2017

The-Wanderer said:
I am more than a little surprised that an Opticron with a stated eye relief of 19mm would not fit an eye glass wearer when a bin with a shorter eye relief did.

-snip-

I don't see how eye relief can be measured longer than Opticron's method. Maybe the axial recess to the glass is materially different between the bins and so this measure is also needed.

I don't get it either. One of the reasons I bought them was because of the stated ER. The 8x42 Zeiss Conquest I have is spec'ed at 18, and it has plenty of ER, as does the Tract Toric at 19. Maybe the spec is wrong?

The only other thing I can think of is whether AFOV and FOV combine to play a role. Both the Nikon MHG, and the Traveller have wider fields than the Tract or the Conquest.

Bill

gcole · Sep 26, 2017

wdc said:
Hi Gwen, The eye relief spec of 18.3 on the Maven was enough to accommodate me. For almost all the binoculars I've tried, a spec of 18 or more has worked, with a few exceptions (Opticron Traveller @ 19mm).

That said, I would give the Mavens a try, if you are curious, as their demo program is a convenient way to get them in your hands for a few weeks. I'd also recommend you try the Opticron Traveller BGA Ed 8x32 to see if it fits you, if you're after that size of a bin. It is apparently built on the same chassis as the Maven. Just because they didn't fit me, doesn't mean they won't fit you. With the Opticrons, you'll get more aperture and power in a similar size package, though perhaps not quite as refined as the Maven.

Bill

Thanks for the information Bill .... gwen

Bill Atwood · Sep 29, 2017

Pileatus said:
Polarized lenses are truly magical. On a day when I can barely keep my eyes open in direct sunlight the polarized glass instantly reduces brightness and eliminates glare, resulting in a relaxed view that is hard to describe. Though the image is darkened, colors and detail are excellent. Also, the difference between tinted prescription eyeglasses and polarized lenses is breathtaking. I wore tinted for years (various tints available) to save a few bucks...a really stupid mistake. My polarized eyeglasses are single vision with no bifocal. If I'm hawk watching all day in bright sunlight I can put them on around 0900 and remain comfortable until the sun sets. Without them, I'd be "burned out" before noon and miss a lot of birds the rest of the day because I couldn't tolerate the brightness.

+1 on polarized single vision! They really show the beauty of some landscapes too.

Troubador · Sep 29, 2017

wdc said:
I don't get it either. One of the reasons I bought them was because of the stated ER. The 8x42 Zeiss Conquest I have is spec'ed at 18, and it has plenty of ER, as does the Tract Toric at 19. Maybe the spec is wrong?

The only other thing I can think of is whether AFOV and FOV combine to play a role. Both the Nikon MHG, and the Traveller have wider fields than the Tract or the Conquest.

Bill

Hi Guys

Don't forget the role of the eyecup here. The eyecup needs to deliver your eye to the right place and different eyecups on different binos can give different results even if the user and spectacles are the same. In addition, if you don't get the binos in the right place on your specs so that you aren't quite looking down the optical axis, it can be tricky to tell if the eyecup is too long (and robs some of the ER) or is too short (yielding an excess of ER). Some of these effects can be mitigated by the way the bins are presented to your specs so that you can tolerate a bino with too-short eyecups for example by not pressing the bins right up to your specs. In this way you can get results you don't expect by just looking at the ER figure.

Lee

Some Binoculars with good Eye Relief, and a few other notes.. (1 Viewer)

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Alexis Powell

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bluespiderweb

Great Grey Looking Out

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elkcub

Silicon Valley, California

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