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White or Pied Wagtail? (1 Viewer)

kas

Well-known member
Is this a Pied or a White Wagtail?

There isnt much to go on in the books, so I am looking for some help and tips on ID. Thanks.

I am thinking this is a white, due to the difference in colour between the grey back and black head.
 

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I think you are right but am not completely confident. The female pied is described as having a back that varies between black and dark olive-gray with only few black feathers. Other non-adult plumages of pied are even more similar to white. If you have taken this image recently, then chances are that the bird is in adult plumage and it is a white.

Niels
 
kas said:
Is this a Pied or a White Wagtail?

There isnt much to go on in the books, so I am looking for some help and tips on ID. Thanks.

I am thinking this is a white, due to the difference in colour between the grey back and black head.

Hi Kas

I would hazard a guess this would be a male alba - mainly because the photo suggests a very clear distinction between the black head and nape, to the mantle. The mantle overall appears to the same lighter tone you would expect with a cinerea Grey compared to yarrelliis. Also with the white wags, the rump is the same pale grey whereas with the pieds, it fades into darker area as it meets uppertail coverts.

Overall, I think the confusion would be between a female yarrellii (pale mantle) and a male alba as the male pied is much much darker than the photo suggests. However, the female yarrellii does not have the black complete hood.

The only question for me is the apparent roundness of the shape and maybe some darker patches on the mantle, which would suggest female pied - and not being able to see the fading of the hood could be because of body position - anyhow, that could be just to do with the photo quality.

To be honest, I was only able to distinquish these initially by seeing both species in my garden together for several days LOL

..anyway, someone with more experience may disagree!
 
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The two things I always look for are the difference in hood and back colour, and the amount of grey smudging on the flanks. At first glance it looks like the grey mantle is pale enough for white wagtail, but there seems to be a lot of grey on the flanks, which, along with the dark patches on the back would suggest that this is a female pied. In my (limited) experience, white wagtails in spring look very 'clean', whilst this bird doesn't give that impression.

Laurence
 
The flank colour alone would make me think that this is a Pied.
A recent paper on the two species confuses the issue somewhat by suggesting that most of the birds we previously thought were Pied are actually White Wagtails.

At the moment though, that is still Pied to me!

Darrell
 
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Darrell - wasn't that paper focusing on autumn birds or something like that?? I agree that it's Pied, flank colour and also it appears there's some black areas on the mantle.
 
dwayne950 said:
Darrell - wasn't that paper focusing on autumn birds or something like that?? I agree that it's Pied, flank colour and also it appears there's some black areas on the mantle.

Your right Dan - the paper was about autumn birds. Spring birds are far more straightforward. This is a female Pied for me, for reasons already given (Flanks and mantle).

Dave
 
I'd say yarrellii but I stayed in northern Spain recently (Angues near Huesca) and there was a Wagtail there the whole time that would have passed for yarrellii here. Do yarrellii get to northern Spain or is the distinction more muddied?
 
Pied for me too, flanks like that I've not seen on White. I suggest its a first winter male: looks to me as if there are black feathers coming through the grey back, which seems too dark for White Wag anyway.

John
 
Thanks

Thanks everyone. I will take it as being a Pied. It was taken last Sunday and the bird was with another bird (below) which was defenitley a Pied.

Thanks again :t: , I have alot of learning to do on sub species.
 

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London Birder said:
yarrellii for me, flanks look a bit too sullied for alba ... did you get a look at the rump?


I am afraid I didnt as I didnt pay much attention to it, at the time as I was too busy watching a pair of little grebes which appeared to be displaying. It was only when I was deleting the poor photos, that I came across the photo that I had a good look at the bird.
 
dwayne950 said:
Darrell - wasn't that paper focusing on autumn birds or something like that?? I agree that it's Pied, flank colour and also it appears there's some black areas on the mantle.


Thanks for that. I didn't read the paper but it seems likely to turn our understanding of such a common species on its head.

Darrell
 
Looks like a 1st summer (brownish primaries) yarrellii, not sexed. Notice the blackish nape, lacking in many female alba. Kas second yarrellii looks like a a first summer male, notice the fresh looking second generation inner greater coverts, contrasting with the brownish, worn first generation outers, (also a hint of that in the first bird)and the brownish first gen. primaries.

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/photo/m_alba_yarrellii_03.php

JanJ
 
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