• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

New species of Canada Goose (1 Viewer)

C

CarolineT

Active member
On another website today I read that the BOU has decided that on the British List Canada Goose should be split into 2 species - Greater and Lesser. However, there was no information as to how to distinguish the 2 species, and the BOU website has no mention of the change yet at all. Can anyone else help?
 
ID information as such is a bit beyond the scope of the BOU i think. So far as i know canada goose ID is very complex - basically you have to ID the bird to subspecies level based on things like size, structure, plumage - then see which species your subspecies belongs to. Not an easy process!
 
Is there a decent ID article?

Sibley says something like "I cannot say how to tell them apart in the field".
 
James Lowther said:
ID information as such is a bit beyond the scope of the BOU i think. So far as i know canada goose ID is very complex - basically you have to ID the bird to subspecies level based on things like size, structure, plumage - then see which species your subspecies belongs to. Not an easy process!
Click to expand...

The press release is from the taxonomic subcommittee and it is outside the scope of the TSc's remit to deal with field id. BOURC will have to sort it out to work out which if any apparently wild Canadas recorded in Britain belong to which species (neither sp is currently on Category A). In the meantime, there are several websites, as others have pointed out. Don't believe everything you read there thoug.h
 
Canada Goose split

CarolineT said:
On another website today I read that the BOU has decided that on the British List Canada Goose should be split into 2 species - Greater and Lesser. However, there was no information as to how to distinguish the 2 species, and the BOU website has no mention of the change yet at all. Can anyone else help?
Click to expand...



Well, what I know about Canada goose is that there is the regular canada goose and the Cackling goose. The Cackling is the smaller of the two and within the Cackling, there is about four subspecies including the Aleutian.

There is one Cackling goose (Aleutian) hanging out in a lake near where I live and that is how my interest in these animals began. I have so good pictures of it if you want I can email them to you,

Check this link out:

<http://www.oceanwanderers.com/CAGO.Subspecies.html>

Hope this helps out.

Regards,

Raul Roa
Whittier, CA USA
 
From the above link;
"For example, separation of taverneri and parvipes (classified as different species) under field conditions is not well understood and is said to be difficult - sometimes impossible - in the hand!"

I think hutchinsii (subsp. of lesser) and parvipes (subsp. of greater) show considerable overlap also. Given that taverneri and hutchinsii are the more likely subsp. of lesser to appear on this side of the atlantic (and parvipes is probably equally likely) i can't see lesser getting past the BOURC too easily in the near future - unless a tiny dark-breasted, high-voiced 'cackling lesser' (minima) turns up. Has that happened before?
 
Lesser and Greater (incl parvipes) Canada Geese are separable (on other grounds than DNA). Bill, headsize and head-shape are the clues, size is not!!!
Check http://www.idahobirds.net/identification/white-cheeked/comparisons.html and http://www.idahobirds.net/identification/white-cheeked/subspecies.html.

Cackling Goose (minima), indeed an easy bird to identify, is regular in winter in the Netherlands, but it's considered an improbable vagrant, because of its westerly distribution. Get your hands (or rather your cameras) on a "Richardson's Goose" (hutchinsii) (of which a genuine neck-collared vagrant was shot in Scotland in the 90's), which has a "friendly", ducklike head... totally unlike the geese-like heads of the Greater (including Lesser (parvipes)) Canada Geese!
 
Obviously if ringed/collared birds are recovered then that's pretty good evidence, but i've gotta say David Sibley (for one) seems to take a much more cautious approach to seperation of parvipes/taverneri/hutchinsii. I can't help thinking that there is a bit of wishful thinking on the part of the idaho birds website. These guys are looking at birds on their wintering ranges where subspecies mix, so how can they be sure there is no overlap in head shape etc.??
 
It's bizarre that the BOU accepts the split but gives them different English names than currently in use in America. I thought there had been efforts to harmonise the English names.
 
Alastair Rae said:
It's bizarre that the BOU accepts the split but gives them different English names than currently in use in America. I thought there had been efforts to harmonise the English names.
Click to expand...

Yeah, especially as parvipes, which is now a subsp. of 'greater canada' has traditionally been called 'lesser canada goose'!! I think there is maybe some questions about the use of cackling goose as a name for the smaller species as only one of the four subsp. actually cackles. Maybe they should run a competition to see if anyone can come up with a good non-confusing pair of new names? Then again, maybe not...
 
James Lowther said:
Yeah, especially as parvipes, which is now a subsp. of 'greater canada' has traditionally been called 'lesser canada goose'!! I think there is maybe some questions about the use of cackling goose as a name for the smaller species as only one of the four subsp. actually cackles. Maybe they should run a competition to see if anyone can come up with a good non-confusing pair of new names? Then again, maybe not...
Click to expand...


Take your pick from the list below - I orignally posted this on WestPal birds (the work was done by George Sangster) but I don't suppose anyone will mind if I put it here as well

***

The TSC's recommendations for English names will be discussed in a lengthy
review paper on Canada Goose taxonomy drafted by BOU-TSC (Sangster et al.
MS).
There are no less than 39 names available for the taxa (species and
subspecies)in the Canada goose complex (see below, modified from one of
the tables in the forthcoming BOU-TSC paper on Canada goose taxonomy). It
will be very difficult to find logical/informative names which have not
been used previousy for a different taxon.


The names proposed by Angus Wilson (which Dominic Mitchell included in his
message to WestPalBirds), i.e. Tundra Goose (for B. hutchinsii), Lesser
Canda Goose (for B. c. parvipes + B. h. taverneri), and Canada Goose (for
B.canadensis but excluding B. c. parvipes), would be no better than the
BOURC names since each of these names also have been used by previous
authors for one or more different taxa (see list).


1. Alaskan Cackling Goose B. h. minima (Aldrich 1946, Yocom 1951)
1. Aleutian Canada Goose B. h. leucopareia (Delacour 1954, Palmer 1976,
Johnsgard 1978)
2. Asiatic Cackling Goose B. h. asiatica (Aldrich 1946)
3. Athabaska Canada Goose B. c. parvipes (Aldrich 1946, Gabrielson &
Lincoln 1959)
4. Atlantic Canada Goose B. c. canadensis (Delacour 1954, Palmer 1976,
Johnsgard
1978)
5. Baffin Island [Richardson] Canada Goose B. h. hutchinsii (Johnsgard
1978)
6. Basin Canada Goose B. c. moffitti (Aldrich 1946)
7. Bering Canada Goose B. h. asiatica (Delacour 1954, Johnsgard 1978)
8. Cackling Canada Goose B. h. minima (Delacour 1954, Gabrielson &
Lincoln 1959,
Palmer 1976, Johnsgard 1978)
9. Cackling Goose B. h. minima (Bent 1925, Kortright 1943, Hellmayr &
Conover
1948); Cackling Goose B. hutchinsii (Banks et al. 2004)
10. Canada Goose B. c. canadensis (Bent 1925); Canada Goose B. canadensis
(Kortright 1943, Sibley 1996, Banks et al. 2004)
11. Common Canada Goose B. c. canadensis (Kortright 1943)
12. Dusky Canada Goose B. c. occidentalis (Delacour 1954, Palmer 1976,
Johnsgard
1978)
13. Eastern Canada Goose B. c. canadensis (Aldrich 1946, Hellmayr &
Conover 1948)
14. Giant Canada Goose B. c. maxima (Delacour 1954, Johnsgard 1978);
Giant
Canada Goose B. c. moffitti (Palmer 1976)
15. Great Basin Canada Goose B. c. moffitti (Hellmayr & Conover 1948,
Yocom 1951)
16. Greater Canada Goose B. canadensis (Sangster et al. 1999)
17. Hudson Bay Canada Goose B. c. interior (Johnsgard 1978)
18. Hutchins Cackling Goose B. h. hutchinsii (Aldrich 1946)
19. Hutchins Goose B. h. hutchinsii (Bent 1925)
20. Interior Canada Goose B. c. interior (Aldrich 1946, Palmer 1976)
21. Lesser Canada Goose B. c. parvipes (Hellmayr & Conover 1948,
Delacour 1954,
Palmer 1976, Johnsgard 1978); Lesser Canada Goose B. h. leucopareia
(Kortright
1943, Aldrich 1946, Gabrielson & Lincoln 1959); Lesser Canada Goose B.
hutchinsii (Sangster et al. 1999, BOURC 2005)
22. Little Cackling Goose B. h. minima (Ridgway 1885)
23. Moffitt [Great Basin] Canada Goose B. c. moffitti (Johnsgard 1978)
24. Moffitt's Canada Goose B. c. moffitti (Delacour 1954)
25. Pacific Canada Goose B. c. occidentalis (Aldrich 1946)
26. Queen Charlotte Canada Goose B. c. fulva (Gabrielson & Lincoln 1959)
27. Richardson's Canada Goose B. h. hutchinsii (Delacour 1954, Palmer
1976)
28. Richardson's Goose B. h. hutchinsii (Kortright 1943, Hellmayr &
Conover 1948)
29. Taverner [Alaska] Canada Goose B. h. taverneri (Johnsgard 1978)
30. Taverner's Canada Goose B. h. taverneri (Delacour 1954)
31. Todd's Canada Goose B. c. interior (Hellmayr & Conover 1948,
Delacour 1954)
32. Tundra Goose B. h. leucopareia (Bailey 1948, Hellmayr & Conover
1948);
Tundra Goose B. hutchinsii (Sibley 1996)
33. Vancouver Canada Goose B. c. fulva (Delacour 1954, Johnsgard 1978)
34. West Coast Goose B. c. occidentalis (Hellmayr & Conover 1948)
35. Western Canada Goose B. c. occidentalis (Kortright 1943)
36. White-cheeked (western) Canada Goose B. c. occidentalis (Gabrielson &
Lincoln 1959)
37. White-cheeked Canada Goose B. c. occidentalis (Yocom 1951)
38. White-cheeked Goose B. c. occidentalis (Bent 1925)
 
I think it's best to keep canadensis as the "Canada Goose".

The hutchinsii group could be Short-billed Goose: its best asset for being distinguished in the field? ;-)
Moreover: as DNA suggests that canadensis and hutchinsii are not each other's closest allies, I think hutchinsii should not be dubbed some kind of Canada Goose anyway (despite its looks).

You could claim that this name is confusing because of Anser brachyrhynchus, the Pink-footed Goose, but I'd like to point out that there's also an A. erythropus around (which has pink, not red legs). And what about Brent Goose (UK) / Brant (US) [B. bernicla (not Barnacle Goose)]? I won't even start about the confusion that arises when you want these names translated into German or Dutch!
 
Warning! This thread is more than 19 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

Swindon Addick
January 1st joint Birdforum list (2024 edition)
7 8 9
Replies
163
Views
7K
Oregonian
Oregonian
H
Review of birding apps I use on Android
Replies
7
Views
2K
THE_FERN
T
JRP01
Santoña 8 to 11 december 2022
Replies
0
Views
650
JRP01
JRP01
J
Birding Asia Taxonomy
2
Replies
29
Views
3K
Andy Adcock
Andy Adcock
lgonz1008
Jamaica: Birding the Land of Wood and Water
Replies
13
Views
538
lgonz1008
lgonz1008

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top