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Old Wednesday 19th April 2017, 18:11   #1
JTweedie
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Chris Packham charged in Malta

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...nment_b-gdneco
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Old Wednesday 19th April 2017, 18:48   #2
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Good luck to Chris in this case. I suppose with these prats he'll need it.
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Old Wednesday 19th April 2017, 18:55   #3
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I hope that the footage exonerates him & as a consequence, the hunters are charged & police officers suspended.
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Old Wednesday 19th April 2017, 18:57   #4
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Hopefully so and maybe it could turn the tide of public opinion in Malta.
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Old Wednesday 19th April 2017, 20:11   #5
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Hopefully so and maybe it could turn the tide of public opinion in Malta.
Or make enough people to think twice about holidaying there ...
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Old Wednesday 19th April 2017, 20:20   #6
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An EU country subsidised by your taxes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/eur...6097.stm#start

so every Maltese hunter or police officer gets about 80 Euros of your cash.

cheers, alan
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Old Thursday 20th April 2017, 11:04   #7
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An EU country subsidised by your taxes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/eur...6097.stm#start

so every Maltese hunter or police officer gets about 80 Euros of your cash.

cheers, alan
And in return, they shoot our Quails and Turtle Doves (breeding in Central Europe), as if to spite us. Nice, innit?
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Old Thursday 20th April 2017, 16:24   #8
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Rightly cleared.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39652901
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Old Thursday 20th April 2017, 18:45   #9
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An EU country subsidised by your taxes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/eur...6097.stm#start

so every Maltese hunter or police officer gets about 80 Euros of your cash.

cheers, alan
It will be harder for justice minded people over there in the UK to stop illegal hunting in Malta and other EU countries from outside the EU. There again, how much did the UK government do to campaign to stop them?
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Old Thursday 20th April 2017, 18:46   #10
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Excellent news.
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Old Thursday 20th April 2017, 21:54   #11
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It will be harder for justice minded people over there in the UK to stop illegal hunting in Malta and other EU countries from outside the EU. There again, how much did the UK government do to campaign to stop them?
Outside the EU, we won't be subsidising them to hunt illegally.

The UK has never had any influence in the EU anyway so leaving changes nothing in relation to policy or application thereof..

cheers, alan
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Old Wednesday 26th April 2017, 12:57   #12
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Outside the EU, we won't be subsidising them to hunt illegally.

The UK has never had any influence in the EU anyway so leaving changes nothing in relation to policy or application thereof..

cheers, alan
Er. Incorrect.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/
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Old Wednesday 26th April 2017, 13:12   #13
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I think you probably ought to read the web-page you've linked to, even if you assume this organisation is 'neutral' in this (or any other) debate.

There is plenty of evidence, including on that page, that on directives that matter to the UK (eg Port Services Directive), we are out voted and / or our influence on policy direction is limited or absent.

cheers, alan
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Old Wednesday 26th April 2017, 13:17   #14
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fullfact.org

The website is not neutral. For example, much of the EU work is done by Paul Craig, Oxford professor of English law, .

"Speaking to Legal Cheek all the way from Indiana where he is currently teaching, Craig explained he wrote a number of articles for Full Fact in the weeks running up to referendum D-Day.

Though Craig is, understandably, a strong Remain supporter, he told us his articles were motivated not by politics but by fact. In his eyes, they were “clear”, “objective” and all pointing in the same direction: the UK should remain a Member State..."

cheers, alan
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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 08:24   #15
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Outside the EU, we won't be subsidising them to hunt illegally.

The UK has never had any influence in the EU anyway so leaving changes nothing in relation to policy or application thereof..

cheers, alan
I suppose that you read that in a newspaper or heard it from a politician, two suspect sources of information!

I know the first point and, as for the second, why didn't the UK try to influence the EU more? Now, unfortunately, you've lost the opportunity, and bird conservation will be poorer as a result.

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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 09:27   #16
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I suppose that you read that in a newspaper or heard it from a politician, two suspect sources of information!

I know the first point and, as for the second, why didn't the UK try to influence the EU more? Now, unfortunately, you've lost the opportunity, and bird conservation will be poorer as a result.
I assume you agree the first point?

1. Malta net recipient
2. UK net contributor
3. Thus UK subsidises all Maltese citizens
4. Thus UK subsidises Maltese hunters

cheers, alan
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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 10:22   #17
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. for the second, why didn't the UK try to influence the EU more? Now, unfortunately, you've lost the opportunity, and bird conservation will be poorer as a result.
OK, let's break this down. Let's consider David Cameron's attempt to secure some changes, such as an 'Emergency Brake' on EU immigration, to enable him to win the EU referendum. The 'Brake' and its effect would have been little different in effect to the transitional arrangements which Tony Blair failed to implement in respect of new accession countries (Romania, Bulgaria). The EU rejected the emergency brake out of hand. That one simple act of compromise would probably have been sufficient for the majority of UK voters to remain in the EU. If the UK has such limited influence even when it is threatening to leave, then how do you expect anyone to believe that we had influence prior to that.

Why will bird conservation be poorer? We will not be subsidising the habitat destroying CAP and we will not be subsidising southern European hunters in net recipient countries.

cheers, alan
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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 12:22   #18
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The view from outside

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Why will bird conservation be poorer? We will not be subsidising the habitat destroying CAP and we will not be subsidising southern European hunters in net recipient countries.

cheers, alan
Why will bird conservation be poorer? Lack of influence in making the EU enforce the wildbird directive. If it was difficult from within the EU, it won't happen from the outside.

Subsidies? Do grouse estates in the UK receive any taxpayers' money? UK politicians were weak in making the EU enforce the wildbird directive because of the influence of those rich landowners in the UK Conservative Party.

Good on Chris Packham for trying.
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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 12:39   #19
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[quote=Allen S. Moore;3557512]Why will bird conservation be poorer? Lack of influence in making the EU enforce the wildbird directive. If it was difficult from within the EU, it won't happen from the outside.
/QUOTE]

IMO we have no influence and that is demonstrable by the 'emergency brake' argument. How can you change things from the inside when an organisation lacks the will,, means or structures to change. The UK can be more direct from outside the block and can make bilateral arrangements.

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Subsidies? Do grouse estates in the UK receive any taxpayers' money? UK politicians were weak in making the EU enforce the wildbird directive because of the influence of those rich landowners in the UK Conservative Party.
Yes, separate point and happy to discuss this elsewhere

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Good on Chris Packham for trying.
Yes, CP has done a huge amount to bring this to the attention of the UK. I support him wholeheartedly.

A pity we are currently subsidising such a corrupt country (see links above), through our EU net contributions.

cheers, alan
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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 12:52   #20
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I assume you agree the first point?

1. Malta net recipient
2. UK net contributor
3. Thus UK subsidises all Maltese citizens
4. Thus UK subsidises Maltese hunters

cheers, alan
While the point might be strictly true you used the classic Europhobe game of putting a bizarre spin on reality to come up with "80euro of your money goes to Maltese hunters" claim

Anyhoo.....

Using relatively current (2015) data.

The net per capita distribution of EU funds to Malta is about 97euro
That doesn't all come from the UK. However obviously the UK has (for the moment) a large and strong economy built significantly on trade with our EU compatriots, so we are net contributors to the EU budget.

The UK gross contribution to the EU budget is 14% (noting this is about 1% of total UK government spending a minuscule proportion for all the bloody fuss leavers make about it, and this is gross so I have ignored the money we receive back from the EU)

So the per capita distribution of UK EU funds to Malta is less than 14euro

Since you said "80euros of your cash" another way to cut it is per capita distribution from a UK individual to a Maltese individual. In that instance about 0.3euro per UK individual goes to each Maltese per year.

So more accurately each Maltese hunter or police gets about 0.3euro of your cash a year. Probably more like 0.6euro per tax payer I guess.

I hope they don't spend it all at once......
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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 13:02   #21
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OK, let's break this down. Let's consider David Cameron's attempt to secure some changes, such as an 'Emergency Brake' on EU immigration, to enable him to win the EU referendum. The 'Brake' and its effect would have been little different in effect to the transitional arrangements which Tony Blair failed to implement in respect of new accession countries (Romania, Bulgaria). The EU rejected the emergency brake out of hand. That one simple act of compromise would probably have been sufficient for the majority of UK voters to remain in the EU. If the UK has such limited influence even when it is threatening to leave, then how do you expect anyone to believe that we had influence prior to that.

cheers, alan
The UK had the ability to apply much stronger restrictions on the EU accession states under EXISTING EU agreements and chose not to (unlike many other EU members).
This was either due to incompetence or, more likely, a deliberate policy that enabled the country to gain economic benefit from an influx of cheap labour.
If the majority of English voters were not so bloody dumb to have been misled by politicians and the press to believe that immigration was a problem caused by the EU we wouldn't have needed a referendum in the first place.
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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 13:02   #22
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While the point might be strictly true you used the classic Europhobe game of putting a bizarre spin on reality to come up with "80euro of your money goes to Maltese hunters" claim

Anyhoo.....

Using relatively current (2015) data.

The net per capita distribution of EU funds to Malta is about 97euro
That doesn't all come from the UK. However obviously the UK has (for the moment) a large and strong economy built significantly on trade with our EU compatriots, so we are net contributors to the EU budget.

The UK gross contribution to the EU budget is 14% (noting this is about 1% of total UK government spending a minuscule proportion for all the bloody fuss leavers make about it, and this is gross so I have ignored the money we receive back from the EU)

So the per capita distribution of UK EU funds to Malta is less than 14euro

Since you said "80euros of your cash" another way to cut it is per capita distribution from a UK individual to a Maltese individual. In that instance about 0.3euro per UK individual goes to each Maltese per year.

So more accurately each Maltese hunter or police gets about 0.3euro of your cash a year. Probably more like 0.6euro per tax payer I guess.

I hope they don't spend it all at once......
Probably on a couple of bullets - thanks for proving my point

cheers, alan
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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 13:07   #23
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The UK had the ability to apply much stronger restrictions on the EU accession states under EXISTING EU agreements and chose not to (unlike many other EU members).
This was either due to incompetence or, more likely, a deliberate policy that enabled the country to gain economic benefit from an influx of cheap labour.
..or because Labour wanted to attract natural Labour voters (see comments by Straw, the Prince of Darkness and others). You've again proved my point - the policy which Blair failed to use, would likely have had a similar population effect (if used) to an emergency brake (not granted). So why was the EU so reluctant to grant it?

cheers, alan
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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 13:16   #24
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You are assuming immigration is a problem. I am not.

Maybe the EU just got over the UK using it's influence to broker special treatment as it has done for years.....

Whatever, good luck with leaving. You'll need it.
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Old Thursday 27th April 2017, 13:32   #25
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You are assuming immigration is a problem.
No I'm not - you really need to stop misrepresenting the view of others. I think the UK economy has benefitted from European migration. However I am saying that the UK would probably have voted to remain, if Cameron had achieved any concession from the EU on a tool to reduce total flows.

cheers, alan
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