Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Magnifying the passion for nature. Zeiss Victory Harpia 95. New!

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 8 votes, 2.00 average.
Old Sunday 2nd April 2017, 12:26   #1051
kabsetz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,400
Stan,

I "converted" to IS binoculars 16 years ago, with the 15x50 Canon, and switched to 10x42 when they became available about 10 years ago. I don't have particularly shaky hands, and mostly use a finnstick whether or not I use IS.

Like you say, when one presses the IS button, all other aspects of the binocular become a side issue. It has remained a mystery to me how birders can be so conservative as to not realize this.

Kimmo
kabsetz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 2nd April 2017, 13:20   #1052
jgraider
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: West Texas
Posts: 1,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanbo View Post
Can I divert the thread slightly.

I think that Dennis has a very good point and the "rave" reviews of the eastern (to me) clones suggests that he might well be right. At the moment.

However, all of the newcomers are just revamps of existing technology in fancy dress. Most of improvements in binocular start at the higher end and filter down and that is how its likely to remain.


Stan

That's already been proven false by Lee, as he posted the numerous patents awarded to Kamakura over the years.
jgraider is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 2nd April 2017, 14:05   #1053
PeteQuad
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Weddington, NC
Posts: 210
I have the Canon 18x50 IS binoculars and I agree that IS is amazing - I often use it instead of a scope. I think the reason they have not caught on for mainstream use is the weight. I don't think most people want to use something so heavy all the time - combined with the cost it leaves them in a niche.
PeteQuad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 2nd April 2017, 15:12   #1054
Theo98
Eurasian Goldfinch
 
Theo98's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: SE La
Posts: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteQuad View Post
I have the Canon 18x50 IS binoculars and I agree that IS is amazing - I often use it instead of a scope. I think the reason they have not caught on for mainstream use is the weight. I don't think most people want to use something so heavy all the time - combined with the cost it leaves them in a niche.
Agreed Pete!

IMHO (and keeping with the theme of this particular thread), the Only possible Alpha-Killers Would be an IS or VR stabilized optic that had equal Ergonomics (weight-handling-comfort), equal investment Cost (or less), equal Warranties and equal Optics compared to the current top-of-the-line offerings. After all, who Wouldn't be willing to have their best "hand-held binocular viewing as-is", with virtually No Image Shake (think of IS & VR SLR camera lenses and bodies)!

Reality check...an "equally performing stabilized" Alpha product probably will never be fully achievable in a glass based hand held instrument (due to many production\limitation\cost factors, etc.). If it could have, they would have...Maybe?!

Ted
__________________
Seeing is Believing ...Believing without Seeing is...FAITH!
Theo98 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 2nd April 2017, 16:24   #1055
Troubador
Registered User
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 6,169
Take a look at the following site Stanbo: http://patents.justia.com/assignee/kamakura-koki-co-ltd

Here you can see some recent patents registered by Kamakura Koki, surely the world's most prolific 'cloner' and guess what? The first 6 patent image stabilising technology.

Lee
Troubador is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 2nd April 2017, 16:57   #1056
etudiant
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 3,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo98 View Post
Agreed Pete!

IMHO (and keeping with the theme of this particular thread), the Only possible Alpha-Killers Would be an IS or VR stabilized optic that had equal Ergonomics (weight-handling-comfort), equal investment Cost (or less), equal Warranties and equal Optics compared to the current top-of-the-line offerings. After all, who Wouldn't be willing to have their best "hand-held binocular viewing as-is", with virtually No Image Shake (think of IS & VR SLR camera lenses and bodies)!

Reality check...an "equally performing stabilized" Alpha product probably will never be fully achievable in a glass based hand held instrument (due to many production\limitation\cost factors, etc.). If it could have, they would have...Maybe?!

Ted
Is cost really an issue?
The Canon 10x42L, their flagship birding glass, is available for less than half the price of unstabilized Zeiss or Swaro 10x42s. It is one of the true bargains in todays optics market, imho.
The obstacles to wider acceptance are probably partly ergonomics (they are heavy and bulky), but more likely the derisory warranty period, now extended to three years iirc, from 1 year initially. For alpha glass buying birders, conditioned to expect lifetime service by Swaro, this is a huge red flag.
In real life, the glass is quite robust. One served me flawlessly for 8 years before the IS packed in. It is now back in the pink, but the repair took several iterations, which was disconcerting.
It may be that the service model that new entrants such a Maven are pioneering, to replace rather than to repair, is in fact appropriate for this technology. Unfortunately, no one has yet quite cracked the code of how to sell this superior optics technology in the mainstream.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 2nd April 2017, 17:51   #1057
Theo98
Eurasian Goldfinch
 
Theo98's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: SE La
Posts: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
Is cost really an issue?
Well for example...Take the 10X42L with its great optics and effective stabilization, Add the top-quality ergonomics (much smaller size, much lower weight, very comfortable handling), insure best-in-class optics (or at least equal to), match industry's long term warranties...all this of say the SV, SF, NVID, EDG, etc.! Could it be done for the same price-of-entry as per the current high end optic market offerings, or would their cost to the public be way over the top??

Since this All Performing & Encompassing optic hasn't yet appeared, then the main reason, probably, is because "Cost is the Issue" and would not make for a profitable marketing strategy! Could it be done as a "cost-no-object" commodity, I'm sure it could. I would Love to see Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, Nikon or Canon engineer a no-holds-bared respectable (top optical+ergonomic) Stabilized Alpha, Just to "See" this capable technology in action!

Ted
__________________
Seeing is Believing ...Believing without Seeing is...FAITH!
Theo98 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 2nd April 2017, 20:02   #1058
etudiant
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 3,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo98 View Post
Well for example...Take the 10X42L with its great optics and effective stabilization, Add the top-quality ergonomics (much smaller size, much lower weight, very comfortable handling), insure best-in-class optics (or at least equal to), match industry's long term warranties...all this of say the SV, SF, NVID, EDG, etc.! Could it be done for the same price-of-entry as per the current high end optic market offerings, or would their cost to the public be way over the top??

Since this All Performing & Encompassing optic hasn't yet appeared, then the main reason, probably, is because "Cost is the Issue" and would not make for a profitable marketing strategy! Could it be done as a "cost-no-object" commodity, I'm sure it could. I would Love to see Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, Nikon or Canon engineer a no-holds-bared respectable (top optical+ergonomic) Stabilized Alpha, Just to "See" this capable technology in action!

Ted
Image stabilization is now a routine technology, available even in entry level cameras, so incremental costs can't be huge. I'd expect some enterprising beta supplier to pioneer the next step, seen that the alpha makers are obviously asleep at the switch.
The patent listings discovered by 'troubador' are quite provocative, perhaps Kamakura recognizes that there is a market opportunity....
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 2nd April 2017, 21:03   #1059
Theo98
Eurasian Goldfinch
 
Theo98's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: SE La
Posts: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
Image stabilization is now a routine technology, available even in entry level cameras, so incremental costs can't be huge. I'd expect some enterprising beta supplier to pioneer the next step, seen that the alpha makers are obviously asleep at the switch.
The patent listings discovered by 'troubador' are quite provocative, perhaps Kamakura recognizes that there is a market opportunity....


WG,

Yes...Mechanical\electrical stabilization in camera lenses\imagers works very well for photography\videography. If the practical application (keeping ergonomics\cost well under control) would be applied to high end visual optics, then Kamakura IS development would be very welcome. To keep their competitive edge, the 4 big optic providers might then be stirred into IS action...just a thought!

Ted
__________________
Seeing is Believing ...Believing without Seeing is...FAITH!
Theo98 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 2nd April 2017, 21:24   #1060
Sancho
Registered User
 
Sancho's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 8,456
Quote:
Originally Posted by kabsetz View Post
Stan,


Like you say, when one presses the IS button, all other aspects of the binocular become a side issue. It has remained a mystery to me how birders can be so conservative as to not realize this.

Kimmo
I had, over the years, Canon IS in 10x42, 12x36, 10x30 and 8x25 (not in that order). I dearly wanted to love them. But for quick scanning, 8x is my usual bino, and the Canon 8x25 is a nasty plastic, jerky IS, narrow FOV beast. The big 15x and 10x are heavy, cumbersome to use and unecessary if you have a scope and tripod with you anyway. I liked the 10x30 and 12x36, but again, if you scan with binos and observe carefully with a scope (which is IS anyway if you have a good tripod), they're not needed. All Canon IS suffer from rotten warranty, really awful service/repair facility, and 'battery anxiety'. For searching in close foliage, etc., none have sufficient FOV.
All that said, if there were a lightweight 8x IS bino with FOV of 7.8 degrees or more, I'd be interested. Maybe if I didn't want to use a scope I'd find the 15x50 useful again....but 15x is insufficient for estuaries or seawatching.
(Caveat...all the above is IMHO only. I know nothing.)
Sancho is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 2nd April 2017, 22:06   #1061
Pinewood
New York correspondent
 
Pinewood's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 3,330
Hello Sancho,

It is uncommon for American bird watchers to carry a 'scope and binoculars.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur
__________________
Bread is not enough. Give us circuses!
Pinewood is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 2nd April 2017, 22:49   #1062
etudiant
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 3,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
...All Canon IS suffer from rotten warranty, really awful service/repair facility, and 'battery anxiety'. For searching in close foliage, etc., none have sufficient FOV.......
Agree on the scant warranty, think the service is adequate, even if not Swaro grade, have never felt 'battery anxiety' with lithium AAs good for weeks of steady service.
FoV is not spectacular for the 10x42ISL, but at 6.5 degrees it is certainly competitive.
AS Pinewood notes, the IS is not a scope alternative, at least here in the US. Given the extensively wooded terrain in the eastern US, where most of the people live, there is limited call for scopes. But lots of stuff flies by and that is where the IS function really makes a difference.
All that notwithstanding, Canon IS sales are sluggish, so your skepticism is clearly the norm.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 3rd April 2017, 00:43   #1063
ceasar
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NE Pennsylvania
Posts: 10,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
Agree on the scant warranty, think the service is adequate, even if not Swaro grade, have never felt 'battery anxiety' with lithium AAs good for weeks of steady service.
FoV is not spectacular for the 10x42ISL, but at 6.5 degrees it is certainly competitive.
AS Pinewood notes, the IS is not a scope alternative, at least here in the US. Given the extensively wooded terrain in the eastern US, where most of the people live, there is limited call for scopes. But lots of stuff flies by and that is where the IS function really makes a difference.
All that notwithstanding, Canon IS sales are sluggish, so your skepticism is clearly the norm.

I haven't seen any Lithium AA batteries being sold in my local CVS drug store for quite a while. Are they still commonly available?

Bob
ceasar is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2010 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 3rd April 2017, 03:56   #1064
mfunnell
Registered Confuser
 
mfunnell's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceasar View Post
I haven't seen any Lithium AA batteries being sold in my local CVS drug store for quite a while. Are they still commonly available?
Bob, Energiser L91 ("Ultimate Lithium") batteries are commonly available here in Oz (I get them from my local supermarket) so I imagine they'd be even more readily aviailable where you are (and likely a good deal cheaper).

If I were to buy Canon IS binoculars (and I am thinking about it) I'd be inclined to use Eneloop rechargables, and keep a set of L91s (or L92 AAAs, depending on model) as spares "just in case". Standard Eneloops can be recharged thousands of times so pay for themselves pretty quickly. They are "low self-discharge" batteries, so will be ready and charged when you need them (unlike older rechargables, which always seemed to be flat whenever I went to use them). Oh, and never use alkaline batteries ("alkaleaks") in anything you don't want to lose. Modern rechargables or Lithiums don't leak, so are worth the extra money in equipment not killed.

...Mike
__________________
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." Dave Barry

Some photos of my local birds on flickr.
mfunnell is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 3rd April 2017, 13:33   #1065
james holdsworth
Consulting Biologist
 
james holdsworth's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ontario
Posts: 2,926
It's extremely infrequent that, while birding, I think ''jeez, my view is so shaky, I'd love some IS.''

Sure, you could say that any view would be enhanced but, when birding, it's about making the quick ID and moving on, not gleaning the tiny details - at least in most of my birding. So, for me, IS is overkill almost all of the time.
__________________
''serenity now....insanity later.'' - Lloyd Brawn
james holdsworth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 3rd April 2017, 17:43   #1066
Sancho
Registered User
 
Sancho's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 8,456
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinewood View Post
Hello Sancho,

It is uncommon for American bird watchers to carry a 'scope and binoculars.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur
Really? That's a surprise. The view through the IS10x42 I owned was spectacular, to be fair, and pulled out far more detail than a non IS bino. I think I could see more detail with even the lowly IS 10x30 than with any non-IS 'alpha'.
But I had poor service with a pair of damaged IS 12x36, sent them off twice for repair and each time they came back with extra 'issues', at a hefty cost.
Maybe the scope thing is the main reason Euro-birders generally don't bother with IS binos.
Sancho is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 3rd April 2017, 17:57   #1067
FrankD
Registered User
 
FrankD's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 8,365
I carry a scope and binoculars when I go out birding.

...but then I am usually the only one when I go birding in a group with a few exceptions.
__________________
Visit our Optics Review site......
http://opticstheviewfromhere.com/
Digiscoped videos .....
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAf...1LMvsLF0DExoog
FrankD is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 3rd April 2017, 22:32   #1068
etudiant
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 3,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by james holdsworth View Post
It's extremely infrequent that, while birding, I think ''jeez, my view is so shaky, I'd love some IS.''

Sure, you could say that any view would be enhanced but, when birding, it's about making the quick ID and moving on, not gleaning the tiny details - at least in most of my birding. So, for me, IS is overkill almost all of the time.
A professional able to identify his sightings with just a glance will have no need for the IS in his surveys. Being an amateur, I've found the IS super useful for tracking warblers in the canopy, as the bird is actually still in the binocs on the infrequent occasions that it is not flitting. Likewise when glassing a meadow edge or the side of a pond, having a stable view highlights any motion and also helps pull out the birds from the clutter.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 3rd April 2017, 23:09   #1069
james holdsworth
Consulting Biologist
 
james holdsworth's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ontario
Posts: 2,926
Quote:
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
A professional able to identify his sightings with just a glance will have no need for the IS in his surveys. Being an amateur, I've found the IS super useful for tracking warblers in the canopy, as the bird is actually still in the binocs on the infrequent occasions that it is not flitting. Likewise when glassing a meadow edge or the side of a pond, having a stable view highlights any motion and also helps pull out the birds from the clutter.
In your situation it does sound useful but, then again, it begs the question why the rest of the amateur birding world is wholly unconvinced.
__________________
''serenity now....insanity later.'' - Lloyd Brawn
james holdsworth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 4th April 2017, 00:22   #1070
WJC
Registered User
 
WJC's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Twin Falls
Posts: 1,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by james holdsworth View Post
In your situation it does sound useful but, then again, it begs the question why the rest of the amateur birding world is wholly unconvinced.
Many things are factual but unpopular notions and it’s only when they BECOME popular that they are finally taken as factual. With folks who so desperately shun original and thorough research, I’m afraid it will always be that way. Am I saying Etudiant is correct in his statement? Nope! ‘Just that those guilty of paying attention to the world around them—in this case, a hobby or interest—have long noted the validity of my primary sentence. But then, Etudiant is just an ... etudiant.

Bill
__________________
"The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."—Dr. Stephen Hawking
WJC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 4th April 2017, 02:56   #1071
Alexis Powell
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lawrence, Kansas, USA
Posts: 2,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by james holdsworth View Post
It's extremely infrequent that, while birding, I think ''jeez, my view is so shaky, I'd love some IS.''

Sure, you could say that any view would be enhanced but, when birding, it's about making the quick ID and moving on, not gleaning the tiny details - at least in most of my birding. So, for me, IS is overkill almost all of the time.
I agree that this is one of the important reasons that the Canon IS bins haven't been more popular. For ducks and gulls and distant perched birds, they're at their best. For flitting sparrows and warblers in nearby brush, where getting on the bird quickly is the primary limitation, they're not so good--not because of the IS, but because of their poor handling. A bin that handles like one of the popular birding models from Leica/Zeiss/Swarovski etc would be awesome, and I think it would do well, even with other downsides such as longevity limited by electonics.

--AP
Alexis Powell is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 4th April 2017, 12:59   #1072
james holdsworth
Consulting Biologist
 
james holdsworth's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ontario
Posts: 2,926
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexis Powell View Post
I agree that this is one of the important reasons that the Canon IS bins haven't been more popular. For ducks and gulls and distant perched birds, they're at their best. For flitting sparrows and warblers in nearby brush, where getting on the bird quickly is the primary limitation, they're not so good--not because of the IS, but because of their poor handling. A bin that handles like one of the popular birding models from Leica/Zeiss/Swarovski etc would be awesome, and I think it would do well, even with other downsides such as longevity limited by electonics.

--AP

Absolutely, and I would probably find the hi-mag Canons great for shore watches and raptors etc., but for the birding most of us do most of the time, IS isn't a priority and also isn't helped by the poor ergos.
__________________
''serenity now....insanity later.'' - Lloyd Brawn
james holdsworth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 21st April 2017, 12:58   #1073
Patudo
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: London
Posts: 93
I feel apologetic for adding to this very well flogged thread but... if Kamakura, or whoever, could deliver next or even current generation stabilization technology in a smaller/more ergonomic/lighter weight package I cannot deny I'd be extremely interested. A lot of my own birdwatching involves observing raptors at long distances (1 km+). There have been many times watching a peregrine on the hunt, 2,000 feet or more up in the sky, that has dwindled from a silhouette the size of a small swift to something more resembling a speck - trying to breathe as lightly as possible, knowing that one wobble might cost you your chance of seeing a stoop that might be the memory of a lifetime - that image stabilization would have been an absolute godsend.
Patudo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 21st April 2017, 14:54   #1074
FrankD
Registered User
 
FrankD's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 8,365
Patudo,

Along that line of thinking...and with the understanding that it isn't a binocular.....this might be of a interest to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...yI&app=desktop

I posted a thread on it over in the spotting scope section but there was no interest at this point.
__________________
Visit our Optics Review site......
http://opticstheviewfromhere.com/
Digiscoped videos .....
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAf...1LMvsLF0DExoog
FrankD is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 21st April 2017, 20:29   #1075
denco@comcast.n
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Denver,CO
Posts: 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patudo View Post
I feel apologetic for adding to this very well flogged thread but... if Kamakura, or whoever, could deliver next or even current generation stabilization technology in a smaller/more ergonomic/lighter weight package I cannot deny I'd be extremely interested. A lot of my own birdwatching involves observing raptors at long distances (1 km+). There have been many times watching a peregrine on the hunt, 2,000 feet or more up in the sky, that has dwindled from a silhouette the size of a small swift to something more resembling a speck - trying to breathe as lightly as possible, knowing that one wobble might cost you your chance of seeing a stoop that might be the memory of a lifetime - that image stabilization would have been an absolute godsend.
It would be nice if Tract could produce a 10x42 image stabilized binocular with a reasonable weight wouldn't it? Especially if they could sell it for less than $1000.00. For now we will have to be satisfied with the Canon 10x42 IS-L if you want IS. I know it is kind of heavy and bulky but that is the price you pay to have IS. Because of the IS the Canon is my favorite 10x binocular. You can just see more detail with it and like you say in certain situations the IS is a godsend. The Tract Toric is my favorite 8x because it ticks more of my boxes than any other binocular at a remarkable price.

Last edited by denco@comcast.n : Friday 21st April 2017 at 20:37.
denco@comcast.n is online now  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
False Death Cap and Death Cap Confirmation John P Lee Fungi & Lichens 2 Wednesday 26th October 2016 18:00
Which Alpha & Why cycleguy Binoculars 15 Thursday 3rd March 2016 14:48
DCF ED vs. Alpha's? Buz Pentax 37 Thursday 19th November 2015 18:24
Alpha a65 at £571 Wildmoreway Sony 2 Wednesday 4th January 2012 12:38

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.24760509 seconds with 38 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 08:22.