• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Is this some type of Finch? (1 Viewer)

H

highworth

Well-known member
This bird was seen at Prawle Point, South Devon, UK on the 10-9-2006.
We are stuck on this one. From the bill it looks like a finch so could it be a Twite, but we first thought from its colour it was a Tree Pipit. Also there was a male Robin nearby and wondered if it was a juvenile Robin but the bill and general colour look wrong. I have some more images if needed for an ID.

As ever any help on the ID would be appreciated

John and Denise
 

Attachments

  • IMG_8582_BFI.jpg
    IMG_8582_BFI.jpg
    123.8 KB · Views: 417
Ron van Rossum

Thanks for the link, yours looks a bit more yellow than this one but we can see the general features are the same. By the way, a very nice picture.

John and Denise
 
I think this is a Cirl bunting, note the supercilium only behind the eye, the face mask that wraps around the ear with the pale mark at the corner, the paler lower mandible.
If we could see more photos that would be great.
Highworth, you were on the right lines with finch but note the long tail & small headed appearance that buntings tend to show in comparison. Also note the bill shape - typical bunting vs finch. Then we're onto plumage - Yellowhammer & Cirl bunting (as you are in South Devon) are the real alternatives left.
Rump colour is the easiest identifier here - with Yellowhammer showing russet vs Cirl's dull greyish brown.
Did you here the call which is a great separater too?
Halftwo
 
Did wonder whether to also consider Cirl, Halftwo (worn female?), tertials and scaps seem to be quite russet cf. Yh and wonder whether the white eyering should be more prominant for Yh.? The primaries look a bit odd for YH but that might be moult. Can't tell for sure.
 
Bird ID

halftwo said:
I think this is a Cirl bunting, note the supercilium only behind the eye, the face mask that wraps around the ear with the pale mark at the corner, the paler lower mandible.
If we could see more photos that would be great.
Highworth, you were on the right lines with finch but note the long tail & small headed appearance that buntings tend to show in comparison. Also note the bill shape - typical bunting vs finch. Then we're onto plumage - Yellowhammer & Cirl bunting (as you are in South Devon) are the real alternatives left.
Rump colour is the easiest identifier here - with Yellowhammer showing russet vs Cirl's dull greyish brown.
Did you here the call which is a great separater too?
Halftwo
Click to expand...


Halftwo

Thanks for the info.
I am at work at the mo but will post some more images tonight.
I will also send you an email so you know when I have posted them

Regards

John
 
That would be helpful Highworth - did you manage to get any views from the rear?

(ie. rear shot would show either olive/grey rump for cirl cf. more reddy brown for yh. - also (but may not be visible) yh would show slightly pale patch on nape - but the best diagnostic difference, would be colour of rump.)
 
Last edited:
These are the rest of the images we got of this bird. Deborah, unfortunately no back view, but a better face view if that helps.

John and Denise
 

Attachments

  • IMG_8576_BFIb.jpg
    IMG_8576_BFIb.jpg
    104 KB · Views: 173
  • IMG_8579_BFI.jpg
    IMG_8579_BFI.jpg
    99.5 KB · Views: 134
  • IMG_8580_BFi.jpg
    IMG_8580_BFi.jpg
    98.8 KB · Views: 140
  • IMG_8583_BFI.jpg
    IMG_8583_BFI.jpg
    96 KB · Views: 141
John & Denise,

I've been perusing my guides and the photos in the gallery section of the site to try to help with this ID. In my part of the country if I got views like this of this bird I'd be immediately certain it was a Yellowhammer, which is much the commoner of the possibilities. Of course, one of the first rules of birding is to prove that it isn't something common before you start to decide that it is soemthing rare. But then your bird is in the very small part of the country where the much rarer Cirl Bunting can be found.

The high contrast of the facial markings does point towards Cirl but this is far from conclusive. If you look through the gallery section you'll find several Yellowhammers showing quite marked contrast in the facial pattern. The camera, and the computer monitor, can mislead about fine points of colour as proved in many of the posts in this ID section.

I believe the only sure-fire way of telling these species apart is by the call or the colour of the rump. Without these I fear we can only conculde that this bird is 100%, without doubt, either a Yellowhammer or a Cirl Bunting, and either a female or a juvenile. (Which is a shorter list of candidates than I have for most of the LBJs I see)

Graham
 
Hi John

I'm afraid I can only echo what Graham has said really. A Cirl would not be a particularly unusual find in South Devon, but YH the more prevalent. I agree the strong face markings point to Cirl, I also think there shows more rufous brown scapular feathers with black centres which questions YH for me as does the amount of white on the coverts. (thus pointing to female Cirl) However, a definative Id one way or another, I think would be very very difficult without a rear view of the bird. Someone with more experience may be able to help you further.
 
deborah4 said:
Hi John

I'm afraid I can only echo what Graham has said really. A Cirl would not be a particularly unusual find in South Devon, but YH the more prevalent. I agree the strong face markings point to Cirl, I also think there shows more rufous brown scapular feathers with black centres which questions YH for me as does the amount of white on the coverts. (thus pointing to female Cirl) However, a definative Id one way or another, I think would be very very difficult without a rear view of the bird. Someone with more experience may be able to help you further.
Click to expand...

I agree with all you say, I couldn't separate the two from the photos, but the head pattern seems to suggest Cirl over YH (just!)
 
Can't say I've ever seen a Yellowhammer that looks quite like that - it would set alarm bells off for me.

I'm thinking that may well be a Cirl, maybe someone local to South Hams or more experienced with them will chip in, it's been a long time since I saw one!

Cheers,

Andy.
 
Thanks everyone for your help. We certainly know what to look for now and so the next time we go there we will be well prepared. Hopefully we will see a few of each.

Regards

John and Denise
 
Andrew Rowlands said:
Can't say I've ever seen a Yellowhammer that looks quite like that - it would set alarm bells off for me.

Andy.
Click to expand...

Me neither Andy except ...... back in August, I clocked what for all intents and purposes was a weird looking YH ... going back over my notes in the past couple of days (which are b****y awful I'm ashamed to say!), the one thing that made me clock the bird amidst the YH and linnet perching on the same powerline, was the colour of rump and head in comparison to other YH in group ... problem is for me on this occasion, cf. to John & Denise, is that I live in Sussex where records show the Cirl is 'extinct'/'very rare' - last known residents in 1980's ... so, and it's a big SO ... I had no choice but to call a weird looking YH on basis of scarcity of species (no photo and no proper fieldnotes made anything else pointless at end of day!) - alarm bells will probably not stop ringing for me with this one ;)

John, I wander whether it's worth you submitting photo to your County Recorder? The Cirl is so localised now in your area, that I'm sure it's of interest nationally to have numbers recorded and they might be able to help with getting confirmation with an Id one way or another.

Good luck with future sightings!
 
It feels like a Cirl to me, but I have a recent track record of getting these wrong from Photos. Pity we can't see the breast streaking or the centre of the crown. I have to say I do them on call and rump colour!
 
Warning! This thread is more than 18 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

H
Small finch - Northumberland coast, England
Replies
2
Views
641
HelenJC
H
M
Which Plover please 🙏
Replies
7
Views
652
Bewick
Bewick
Aladdin
400km E Mid Atlantic Ridge - Gannet or Booby?
Replies
5
Views
673
Steve Lister
S
C
Juvenile Egretta - New Jersey, United States - August
Replies
3
Views
499
qwerty5
qwerty5
M
Doves, gulls etc. (Canary islands)
Replies
0
Views
394
misikuru
M

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top