Some New Guy questions (1 Viewer)

Hi All,
As stated I'm new here and have a few questions as far as bin's are concerned.
I already own a set of Nikon 10x36 ATB's and some New unissued Russian military surplus 12x50's that I got on another forum. Both are nice enough but the Nikons have been commandeered by my girlfriend and the 12x's have this yellowish tint to them that kind of drives me nuts. It doesn't help in low light at all but they have a very crisp picture for the money. So now I'm in the market for something new.
Doing some looking I've noticed a complete absence of comments on IOR (Romanian Optics) binoculars. Now the questions start coming.
1) Are military type bin's generally unacceptabe for birding?
2) Has anyone any experience w/ IOR bin's? (I have one of their scopes and the glass is outstanding which is why I'm surprised to see no mention of them).
3) This may be getting too in depth but after I punched in what attributes I would like in my next set (individual focus eyepieces, fully multi-coated, 7 or 8 mag, big objectives, $300 to $1100, basically good low light bin's) Only 3 models fit the bill.
Steiner 7x50, Fujinon 8x56, and Nikons. Was wondering if anyone knows some more alternatives??
I've got a million more questions but not enough time. So I'll throw this out there and hope I gave some food for thought.
Thanks!

Military binoculars aren't "unacceptable" for birding, but they aren't recommended because they almost always have Individually Focusing oculars which are much slower to use than a center focusing mechanism is.
Bob

First of all, why in the world do you want IF binoculars? They have their uses, but generally suck for any use that includes any birding. The best general purpose IF binoculars out there are the Minox 6.5x32 IF.

Genuine military binoculars often have a range finding reticule and some sort of heavy color bias tended to adapt the view to a specific condition. You won't see much here on IOR, Minox or any other IF binocular on a birding forum. Trying to adequately follow a tree full of little, active birds with a single focus depth of an IF glass, it seems to me is a certain recipe for disaster.

What the IF is, is generally stouter in construction than a CF, and has its best use as a grab for a very hasty quick look without the need for focusing. Or from a moving platform, such as a ship or in a military convoy.

I have the IOR military type 8x30, 7x40, and 10x50, and they all have a slightly yellow tint in their views. Though they all have very good quality optics, since a yellow tint bothers you, the IORs should have the same effect on you.

Further, as the previous respondents mentioned, individual focusing is slower and requires more work than center focusing if your refocusing from far to near, or reverse.

There are plenty of center focusing binoculars of comparable or better optical quality to the IORs. In my view, the real gain in military type binoculars is a high level of ruggedness. I think if you state a few more preferences, others can help pick candidates for you. At the high end of your price range, I've been considering the Meopta Meostar B1 8x56, which is a waterproof, center-focusing roof prism model, though I haven't handled one.

those military binoculars or marine binoculars are ridiculously heavy (for a reason of better shockproof and waterproof JIS L7). A 7x50 can easily go up for 3 lb. It is not a fun exercise if you go out birding for several hours with a 48 oz binoculars, no matter how strong you are.

Yippeekiay said:

I would like in my next set (individual focus eyepieces, fully multi-coated, 7 or 8 mag, big objectives, $300 to $1100, basically good low light bin's) Only 3 models fit the bill.
Steiner 7x50, Fujinon 8x56, and Nikons. Was wondering if anyone knows some more alternatives??
I've got a million more questions but not enough time. So I'll throw this out there and hope I gave some food for thought.
Thanks!

--New Guy

Click to expand...

Welcome to the Bird Forum. A lively response for your first post, if I must say so myself. Just like the actor Rodney Dangerfield, you are finding that individual focus and military/marine binoculars get no respect around here.

Birdwatchers like light center focus binoculars, usually roof prism design. While Military/marine binoculars do well in low light observation, they are heavy and not very mobile--once you adjust the individual focus you tend to stay put. Bird watchers, on the other hand, frequently hold the binoculars close to their eyes--not wanting to miss a single feather--move around as they follow the birds, or employ other strategies that require light center focus binoculars. It is really the birds themselves--more than the birdwatchers--that require this type of binocular.

. . .

And speaking of targets--what type of targets are you after? Perhaps you can tell us what you are looking for in low light situations. I am sure the crowd here can tell you just the binocular models you will need, once they know what you are after. For example, there are several owlers here on the Bird Forum who have considerable experience in low light situations.

. . .

I frequently take out a Fujinon Polaris FMT-SX 7x50 for low light viewing, as does RonH, another participant here on the Bird Forum. They are individual focus and 3 lbs in weight. I usually take a tripod with me. They work great when mounted on a tripod prefocused for a specific distance, such as a line of trees. I also enjoy using them on my patio from a lounge chair with my arms supported on arm rests.

. . .

You mentioned that you are looking for a Fujinon 8x56. Do you know the specific model? The reason I ask is this is not one of the Fujinon models currently on the new bino market.

. . .

Once again, welcome to the Bird Forum.

--Bob
Kentucky, USA

Hi again All,
Thanks for the replies. Sounds like IOR's are ot of the running. Just curious though, my scope doesn't have the yellow tint so does that mean they put it on the bin lenses on purpose? If so, for what purpose? I saw a thread about it but seemed to end w/out a definite answer.
I've always enjoyed seeing the "Big birds". Eagles (when possible), hawks, herons and such. So I guess these are going to be the primary "targets". We've even heard owls at my brother's house in NH but have yet to see one. The one true birding excursion I've been on we were shown green herons. Even though we frequent the same area we haven't seen one since. I know they're there suppose we're just not practiced enough.
Question: If I'm looking for well camoflaged(sp) birds, would low power, larger depth of field be more productive? Does there have to be a compromise between depth of field and image clarity/acquity? And are there any particular coatings I should be looking for?
I've looked at so many models I more than likely made a mistake on the 8x56 Fujinons. They were probably the 7x50's.
Again, Thanks for the responses.

Yippeekiay said:

. . . Sounds like IOR's are out of the running. Just curious though, my scope doesn't have the yellow tint so does that mean they put it on the bin lenses on purpose? If so, for what purpose? I saw a thread about it but seemed to end w/out a definite answer. . . .

Click to expand...

. . . Question: If I'm looking for well camoflaged(sp) birds, would low power, larger depth of field be more productive?


. . . Does there have to be a compromise between depth of field and image clarity/acquity?


. . . And are there any particular coatings I should be looking for?


. . . I've looked at so many models I more than likely made a mistake on the 8x56 Fujinons. They were probably the 7x50's.


I hope this answers some of your questions. If other forum participants come back into the discussion, you may receive some different answers.

--Bob
Kentucky, USA

I really appreciate all this information. Please let me know if I'm asking too many questions.
Just to clarify, I had heard of these models that make the animals fur stand out and I assumed there are some special coatings applied to eliminate or enhance colors and contrast. I was wondering if birders use like coated lenses or even how many different kinds of coatings there are. I get the multi-coated, fully coated and fully-multi coated thing, but what, exactly, are all these coatings made of? Gets very confusing w/ all this information at your fingertips.(Don't know if I could use the word "coating" any more in a paragraph.. Sorry 'bout that)
One more if you would. Pertaining to exit pupil.. I understand the pupil only widens so much and that it narrows w/ age. Also, I've read that some believe anything bigger than your particular pupil size goes unused. Wouldn't having a wider exit pupil allow you to "look around" better within the sight picture?
Again, Thanks for the info.

As to what the coatings are made of, I doubt that you or I would even be able to find out what they are. Mostly they will be proprietary, kind of like Colonel Sanders "secret blend" of 64 herbs and spices used on all that Kentucky Fried chicken. There is probably a list of chemicals used, or the ingredients generally used may be known to optical engineers, but in what combinations and in what layer sequences, forget it. Some list how many layers there are, typically from 20-64. Some will say whether the prism is dielectric coated, silver coated or aluminum coated, but that seems to be it.

There is something to your idea that even if you have a 5mm pupil that a 6mm Exit Pupil in the binocular will give you a little eye placement room. Exit pupil considerations usually are more critical in the other direction, as in when trying to use a 2.5mm EP when your eye is 3-5mm.

Edit: You may well be referring to the coatings on the Steiner Predator binoculars. They are said to enhance the UV spectrum, and they do seem to show grey and brown animals in a green and brown leafy environment. However they impart a rather severe purplish tint. Those Predator coatings have been upgraded and they don't have the color tint to them the old ones had. I have a Steiner 8x30 IF porro Predator and the coatings do seem to work as advertised. I don't like the glass for general use, and don't really use it hunting anymore.

IOR is sold by very few stores. It is probably a competitive brand, not quite with the alphas. I can give a store link anyone needs one.
http://www.swfa.com/c-1209-ior-binoculars.aspx

Steve C said:

As to what the coatings are made of, I doubt that you or I would even be able to find out what they are. Mostly they will be proprietary, kind of like Colonel Sanders "secret blend" of 64 herbs and spices used on all that Kentucky Fried chicken. There is probably a list of chemicals used, or the ingredients generally used may be known to optical engineers, but in what combinations and in what layer sequences, forget it.

Click to expand...

The materials used are well known: they're metal oxides or fluorides with low absorption in the visible and give a range of refractive indexes (which is what you use to build the multi-layer coating). If you come up with a new one then it's usually patented (and so revealed).

It's the design of the multiple layers (which material, their thickness and order) that's proprietary.

Typically it's some of oxides and fluorides of: Lanthanum, Hafnium, Cerium, (and quite a few other lanthanides), Tantalum, Zirconium, Scandium. There are other compounds used too: titanates (e.g. Lanthanum titanate), Lanthanum Aluminum oxide. Even silicon dioxide (i.e. glass!) can be used I think often as a protective top coat or a coat you can bond a hydrophobic or lipophobic coating to.

e.g. http://www.loradchemical.com/optical.html

Hunters (and the military) may prefer tints e.g. the Russians are famous for their yellow bins to reveal animals and camouflage. But birders in general prefer the most neutral bins you can get i.e. the ones the give the best color saturation without a bias. As the birds are a range of different colors so you can't decide which way to bias the bins.

Whew! Think a few parts of my brain just fused together....8-P
That sounds like the kind of in-depth information I've been hoping for, though. I think the main question now is, where can I learn which materials do what and how? That, and these refractive indexes... Is that how much the speed of light is reduced when passing through the material? Or should I just sign up for a course?
Many, many Thanks!

Get an optical design degree, go to work for an optics company and be sworn to secrecy.

Yippeekiay said:

Whew! Think a few parts of my brain just fused together....8-P
That sounds like the kind of in-depth information I've been hoping for, though. I think the main question now is, where can I learn which materials do what and how? That, and these refractive indexes... Is that how much the speed of light is reduced when passing through the material? Or should I just sign up for a course?
Many, many Thanks!

Click to expand...

Yes, that's how they define refractive index.

If you want to avoid the secrecy requirement there are some papers out there (that the more geeky here search out and read!) and that can often be a pointer in a decent optics text.

That said just reading some of the entries in Wikipedia can help a lot. This is a good place to start ... follow the links to find out more about the other topics (like dispersion and Abbe Number).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-reflective_coating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_coating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbe_number