• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Big Gulls in Taiwan (1 Viewer)

One more very straightforward taimyrensis for good measure.

Attached: Adult taimyrensis (ID'd by incomplete primary moult, mid-dark grey mantle, dirty collar, single mirror P10, poorly contrasting black wingtip, dark grey hand (from below), underside of P10 with short diagonal tongue, and fairly bright yellow bill and legs)
 

Attachments

  • Heuglin's Gull (05) - Copy.jpg
    Heuglin's Gull (05) - Copy.jpg
    168.7 KB · Views: 145
  • Heuglin's Gull (06) - Copy.jpg
    Heuglin's Gull (06) - Copy.jpg
    174.9 KB · Views: 114
As I'm now able to recognise many of the individuals at my freshwater site, this probably signals that it is time to leave this spot alone and start spending more time at my saltwater one. I've put in so much time here as I was determined to fully get to grips with first-winters of taimyrensis and mongolicus, and never really managed anything more than acceptable photos of the latter. I only found the one today; it never came close and the light was awful all day long.
 

Attachments

  • Mongolian Gull (04) - Copy.jpg
    Mongolian Gull (04) - Copy.jpg
    144.5 KB · Views: 141
  • Mongolian Gull (05) - Copy.jpg
    Mongolian Gull (05) - Copy.jpg
    199 KB · Views: 130
Last edited:
As usual, plenty of taimyrensis present.
 

Attachments

  • Heuglin's Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    Heuglin's Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    115.1 KB · Views: 128
  • Heuglin's Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    Heuglin's Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    99.6 KB · Views: 127
  • Heuglin's Gull (03) - Copy.jpg
    Heuglin's Gull (03) - Copy.jpg
    168.7 KB · Views: 130
And to close this part, a couple of taxa that don't present any real problems on the ID front!
 

Attachments

  • Great Black-headed Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    Great Black-headed Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    139 KB · Views: 155
  • Saunders's Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    Saunders's Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    110.4 KB · Views: 142
Hi Steve...that's a wonderful set of pics and an Amazing documentation!!

I pretty much agree wwith your ID's, but not sure about bird number 4 and 6 being a tyamirensis. Aren't them too advanced in coverts moult and with pale panels on inner web?

I'd ask you to post all of this wonderful documents on Facebook. The Group is: Western Palearctic Gulls (But oriental/japanese gulls are welcome too)

You will get much more attention and replies there! It looks like here your pics are a little ...you know..hidden !
 
Hi Steve...that's a wonderful set of pics and an Amazing documentation!!

I pretty much agree wwith your ID's, but not sure about bird number 4 and 6 being a tyamirensis. Aren't them too advanced in coverts moult and with pale panels on inner web?

I'd ask you to post all of this wonderful documents on Facebook. The Group is: Western Palearctic Gulls (But oriental/japanese gulls are welcome too)

You will get much more attention and replies there! It looks like here your pics are a little ...you know..hidden !

Thanks for the feedback, balex (Would that be Alex?), and the suggestions. I'm not on Facebook, but please do post a link on there if you think these birds would be of interest to group members.

I assume you mean the bird in #4. I haven't yet managed to penetrate beyond the migraine that reading about second- and third-winters in Malling Olsen and Larsson triggers to be especially confident with them. Do you think that this bird is perhaps a second-winter, then? It bears little resemblance to first-winter mongolicus (all worn and bleached by now), nor to birds I have been identifying as vegae (though I haven't posted any of these yet, but they also look essentially juvenile (with lots of dark on the belly)). These are the only three possibilities here, really.

There's no bird in #6, so I'm not sure which one you're referring to.

Steve
 
I meant number 7, not 6. Sorry

I think they're both 1st winters, but can taymirensis moult to that extent ?
They could be mongolicus

Ok I'll post a link to that on FB, but it would be better if you register and post them on your own, so all pics would be available there and ready to be commented . That's the biggest gull community on line, with more than 2.000 subscribers
 
I meant number 7, not 6. Sorry

I think they're both 1st winters, but can taymirensis moult to that extent ?
They could be mongolicus

Ok I'll post a link to that on FB, but it would be better if you register and post them on your own, so all pics would be available there and ready to be commented . That's the biggest gull community on line, with more than 2.000 subscribers

Thanks very much again. I'm not especialy keen on Facebook!

If both are first-winters, then I would be fairly confident that neither could be mongolicus. The window in both is not very prominent (the trailing edge is not broken by a broad area of white as in the other mongolicus above) and the greater coverts that have not been replaced do not look patterned/white/bleached/old as they should do in mongolicus.

I guess the answer to your question must be 'Yes', then (?!)
 
Last edited:
I'll shove some birds on I consider to be first-winter vegae. Although there is variation in structure in all these gulls, these typically look much shorter and fuller at their rear ends than either taimyrensis or mongolicus, and much thicker-necked and more bulbous-headed. The overall result is that they become far more difficult to separate from Slaty-backed Gull.

The typical individual retains a lot of brown on its belly (contra mongolicus and taimyrensis), has rather white-looking greater coverts (which often contrast strongly wth the rest of the plumage), appears essentially uniform (but patterned) above elsewhere (with no strong contrast brought about by wear/moult), has extensive barring in its uppertail/rump, and has black-looking primaries (contra Slaty-backed Gull).

Attached: First-winter vegae (ID'd by structure, extensive brown belly patch, uniform-looking (but patterned) upperparts, contrasting whiter greater coverts).
 

Attachments

  • Vega Gull (15) - Copy.jpg
    Vega Gull (15) - Copy.jpg
    179.2 KB · Views: 146
  • Vega Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    Vega Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    178.9 KB · Views: 109
  • Vega Gull (04) - Copy.jpg
    Vega Gull (04) - Copy.jpg
    107.1 KB · Views: 103
Last edited:
As I've spent so much time at my freshwater site (specifically after first-winter mongolicus), I haven't come across too many vegae yet this spring. I have come across some, though.

Adults I identify as vegae share the same structural features as outlined for first-winters above (especially 'broad' Slaty-backed Gull-like heads), are typically still in primary moult in February, and (as not yet in breeding condition) have duller-looking bills than either taimyrensis or mongolicus at this time. Contra what is suggested/intimated by much of the literature, the majority of these birds do not have extensive (American Herring Gull-like) head markings, instead have something more like taimyrensis but with more dusky marks and streaking around the eye. They are as pale or even paler-mantled than mongolicus, and have much narrower trailing edge also. The legs of most are pink-bubble gum pink, and lack the grey tones of pink-legged mongolicus.

Measuring black to P6, to P5, to P4 or wherever seems to be entirely useless (claptrap IMO) where these three gull taxa are concerned, as there seems to be complete overlap between all three of them (there should be less black in the wingtip of vegae, but to P3 in one of the individuals attached). Birds I consider to be vegae generally lack much of a tongue down the underside of P10 (so mostly black, like taimyrensis), but then quite abruptly show less black in the wing from P9 inwards (all the black is skewed to the front of the wing, unlike taimyrensis).

Again, the above relate to 'birds I consider to be vegae'. I accept I could be wrong on all counts! Attached are two different individuals.

Attached: Adult vegae (ID'd by structure, pale saddle, dull bill base, winter head markings more extensive than either taimyrensis or mongolicus, pink legs, incomplete primary moult).
 

Attachments

  • Vega Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    Vega Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    106.3 KB · Views: 110
  • Vega Gull (03) - Copy.jpg
    Vega Gull (03) - Copy.jpg
    97.1 KB · Views: 125
  • Vega Gull (05) - Copy.jpg
    Vega Gull (05) - Copy.jpg
    111.3 KB · Views: 123
Last edited:
Very infrequently, birds sharing the same structural and plumage features given for adult vegae above turn up which have bright orange legs (deeper orange-yellow than in taimyrensis). I have these identified as 'birulai'.

In the third image below, the 'birulai' is stood with an adult taimyrensis; in the fourth image with a taimyrensis to the rear and an adult Slaty-backed Gull in the foreground.

Attached: Adult vegae (ID'd by structure, pale saddle, dull bill base, winter head markings more extensive than either taimyrensis or mongolicus, incomplete primary moult).
 

Attachments

  • Birula Gull (04) - Copy.jpg
    Birula Gull (04) - Copy.jpg
    168.7 KB · Views: 128
  • Birula Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    Birula Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    82.5 KB · Views: 131
  • Birula Gull (03) - Copy.jpg
    Birula Gull (03) - Copy.jpg
    199.2 KB · Views: 133
  • Slaty-backed Gull (04) - Copy.jpg
    Slaty-backed Gull (04) - Copy.jpg
    196.1 KB · Views: 131
Last edited:
Interesting thread, keep them coming!

Thanks for the encouragement! I'm going to run out of species pretty soon, but I'm sure I can find one or two oddballs to keep the thread going.

Again, I post my 'methodology' (i.e. how I'm IDing stuff) with each one, so, if you see anything I'm getting wrong, please do point it out!
 
There's only Slaty-backed Gull I haven't looked at at all yet, but, before I do that, I wanted to post some more taimyrensis taken today (and see what the long weekend holiday here this weekend brings).

The first individual is interesting in respect of the bird in #4 and the comment in #25. The solidly dark greater coverts and entirely brown 'hand' (with no window to speak of) of the attached bird point to it being taimyrensis (and to the wing being juvenile). Interestingly, much of the mantle, scapulars, and median and lesser wing coverts seem to have been replaced by an adult-type (blue-grey) feather, resulting in a plumage that looks more like that of some kind of second-winter.

I don't think that this bird can be late first-winter mongolicus as this should have a juvenile wing with faded greater coverts and a prominent pale window. I get out of my depth with second-winters, but, as this plumage is acquired early in mongolicus, it too should be paler/faded by late February.

I really am guessing, but it seems to me that some taimyrensis can moult in a manner as described for barabensis in Malling Olsen and Larsson (i.e. quite advanced and quite early on). Again, if this is completely wrong, please do point it out. There is no interest whatsoever in gull ID here in Taiwan, so I'm left to fathom them out completely on my own!

Attached: First-winter taimyrensis (ID'd by uniformly solid dark greater coverts, indistict pale window, contrasting unmarked white uppertail, active moult to first-winter/first-summer).
 

Attachments

  • Heuglin's Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    Heuglin's Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    154 KB · Views: 117
  • Heuglin's Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    Heuglin's Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    194.4 KB · Views: 119
Last edited:
The second individual is a bird I consider to be a second-winter taimyrensis. It has a second-winter bill (large pale tip, but no real yellow yet) but is very advanced above with only a trace of a tail band (which should be broader in mongolicus of same age (and absent in third-winter taimyrensis)).

Attached: Second-winter taimyrensis (ID'd by extensive mid-dark grey upperparts, second-winter bill pattern, trace of tail band).
 

Attachments

  • Heuglin's Gull (04) - Copy.jpg
    Heuglin's Gull (04) - Copy.jpg
    84.9 KB · Views: 90
  • Heuglin's Gull (03) - Copy.jpg
    Heuglin's Gull (03) - Copy.jpg
    100.5 KB · Views: 116
And a couple of adult or near-adult taimyrensis. The first bird is typical, with rather dark sadlle, P10 still growing, and bright bare parts. The second bird is more difficult to figure out as it is a pale-end individual with damaged feathers (the outermost primaries even look brownish, as if not yet dropped). I thought this was a vegae for a while, but structure and that pale yellow-pink tone to the legs both suggest taimyrensis more.
 

Attachments

  • Heuglin's Gull (05) - Copy.jpg
    Heuglin's Gull (05) - Copy.jpg
    167.3 KB · Views: 112
  • Heuglin's Gull (06) - Copy.jpg
    Heuglin's Gull (06) - Copy.jpg
    193.4 KB · Views: 114
  • Heuglin's Gull (07) - Copy.jpg
    Heuglin's Gull (07) - Copy.jpg
    113.7 KB · Views: 115
And finally two straightforward adult mongolicus from this afternoon's birds. It's amazing in view of the variation in other forms just how consistent adults of this form seem to be. I've also added more Great Black-headed Gull just for good measure.

Attached: Adult mongolicus (ID'd by completed primary moult, entirely white head, relatively pale mantle, contrasting black wingtip with two mirrors, pale hand (from below), broad white trailing edge, and bright yellow bill).
 

Attachments

  • Mongolian Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    Mongolian Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    141.3 KB · Views: 117
  • Mongolian Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    Mongolian Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    124.8 KB · Views: 117
  • Great Black-headed Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    Great Black-headed Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    149 KB · Views: 123
  • Great Black-headed Gull (021) - Copy.jpg
    Great Black-headed Gull (021) - Copy.jpg
    155.5 KB · Views: 103
I took a look at a small harbour about an hour north of home today as this usually has a handful of gulls hanging around in it. Aside from the usual taimyrensis, the only large gull of interest was a first-winter mongolicus, which looked remarkably similar to (and probably was) the individual in #13.

Attached: First-winter mongolicus (ID'd by predominantly whitish look throughout the wing coverts, white trailing edge P1-4 (and prominent window), older brownish-looking outer wing, and no evidence of feather replacement).
 

Attachments

  • Mongolian Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    Mongolian Gull (01) - Copy.jpg
    142.9 KB · Views: 101
  • Mongolian Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    Mongolian Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    119.9 KB · Views: 117
The same harbour did at least contain a medium-sized gull of interest, a Common Gull. I don't think I've ever seen one retain quite so much juvenile plumage until so late in the winter (and not look really bleached), which alone should be sufficient to indicate that it is a kamtscahtschensis.
 

Attachments

  • Common Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    Common Gull (02) - Copy.jpg
    108 KB · Views: 116
  • Common Gull (06) - Copy.jpg
    Common Gull (06) - Copy.jpg
    104.5 KB · Views: 112
Warning! This thread is more than 6 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top