10X42L IS Pros/cons... (1 Viewer)

Binastro · Mar 20, 2017

2017 March 20 21.46 to 21.50UT.
Spring has sprung.

10x42 L IS
Jupiter, a severe test of possible CA. Disc white or off white.
Fairly good transparency. No cloud seen after rainy day.
Binocular braced IS off.
Some CA just detectable centre field, but this could be atmospheric. Low elevation ~18 degrees.
30% away from centre to edge. Definite CA seen. Even maybe 20% from centre.
A bit more towards edge.

IS on. definitely more false colour, but still not objectionable. But I see it if I want to.

2 moons easy, possibly also moon 4, but very light polluted and not the clearest night. Jupiter low.

My pupils probably 5mm so limited by binocular exit pupil.

So, yes I can see CA if I want, but this is one of the best binoculars I have looked through.

Binoculars are two poor telescopes connected together.

The 18x50 IS shows much more CA because of higher power mainly, but better on Jupiter than 10x42 L when observation is difficult.

Richken · Mar 20, 2017

ceasar said:
High Richard,:hi:

Welcome to Bird Forum!

I am not being flippant here but I think that from your past experience as pro photographer that you have "trained" your brain to notice CA under conditions where most people would not notice it.

I don't know what the solution is except to get one of the binoculars with the reputation of being the best at controlling it. I can't help you with this because I don't see it when I use my binoculars under normal everyday lighting conditions. I do use high quality binoculars like the Zeiss Victory 7x42 FL which uses Flourite glass.

It will help to have set both your IPD and diopter correctly and to try to keep the object you are viewing on axis.

Bob

Ceasar

Many thanks for your contribution and observations which I have taken on board.

The point I was making regarding having been a pro photographer for many years was simply to indicate that I'm well used to recognising optical deficiences. I was just surprised having read the many glowing reports of this model's optical performance that I should be seeing CA.

As I need IS to get the best from 10X binoculars without having to resort to the use of a tripod, I'm restricted to the Canon 10x42L IS WP as far as I know.

Cheers Richard

Richken · Mar 20, 2017

Theo98 said:
Hello Richard & Welcome to BF! :hi:

I was dismayed as I read of your dilemma. Fortunately, either I'm not sensitive to CA or haven't purchased binos whose optics are prone to it. As you may have read in post #101, my corrected eyesight appears to facilitate a visual anomaly whereas I experience two focal points in the 10X42L. Believing my pair was defective, ordered a replacement that proceeded to show to me, the same situation (kept the first). In neither unit did I experience any CA in challenging dynamic views such as you describe. I'd guess you might be seeing "unit variations" (such as Canon has a reputation for), but the fact you experience it in many of their other models probably points to your sensitivity (photo experience + your eyes) to CA. You may also have to have a perfectly set IPD and eye cup extensions to minimize off-center CA. Do you view with glasses? If so, check with your eye doctor as I've read that some corrective lens products exasperate binocular CA.

There are several BF members that are also sensitive to CA (even to some top alpha glass instruments), and have to carefully choose (hopefully through pre-purchase glassing activities) which particular models they invest in. It appears you have some admiration for the top Cannon binocular, but you would have to -look past- this issue to continue to enjoy their well known benefits (IS). I hope you can further work this out with your optics dealer, possibly finding better CA controlled optics if needed (ex: Swaro SLC's, Zeiss HT's, possibly Leica Notivid) to glass with and enjoy.

Thanks for posting and keep us informed of your continued progress!

Ted

Thanks Ted.

Yes I did read your posts regarding your interesting viewing problem. I am reasonably reconciled to the prospect of having to ignore the CA that I am seeing in some subject/lighting situations. I very much appreciate reading the feedback from this forum where those posting to this thread have very more experience of the Canon 10x42L IS WP than I have and what is reasonable to expect.

Cheers Richard

Richken · Mar 20, 2017

Binastro said:
Dear Richard,
Welcome.

In addition to the optical normal CA the IS binoculars have moving prisms, which give extra CA.

I used to be immune to CA being used to refractor telescopes.
The normal CA correction for a 3 inch doublet was f/9 but the Conrady standard is f/15.
A 5 inch refractor f/15 or f/25.
The huge refractors have I think about 4 inch focus difference between red and blue.

The only perfect refractor objective I owned was a Ross triplet 100mm f/15.

Horace Dall's camera obscura was 108mm f/30 corrected for 4 colours.

Everyone seems to love the new 8x42 Nikon Monarch HG.
My sample is probably substandard and I hate the CA.

If you go for a telescope you might be better off with a Newtonian or Maksutov.

Note, that our eyes have CA also.
Glasses definitely make things worse for me.

Dear Binastro

Very interesting observations, much appreciated. I do know that my eyesight is not as sharp as it was years ago which rather grieves me, but I can still see things clearly enough to know good optical performance when I see it and there is a lot to like in these Canon glasses.

I will keep in mind your comment about choice of telescopes.....that is for the future<G>

Cheers Richard

Richken · Mar 21, 2017

Stanbo said:
Hi Richard,

I have just got out my Canon 10x42L IS binoculars to look at my usual test for CA which I am prone to see. I looked up at the thin outer branches of birch trees, backlit against a grey sky and there was no CA even to the lens edges. Two back lit jackdaws then appeared which is always a good test and again, no sign of CA. There have been times when I have seen CA through them, but very rarely and then only under very adverse conditions and that doesn't bother me. I have both Nikon EDG and Nikon SE binoculars which are generally considered as CA free and the Canons are as CA free as those.

The other models in the range don't have ED glass and they do show some CA under adverse conditions but not to a degree that it bothers me.

I'm of an age like you (swing the light and I will tell you war stories), and my CA problem stems from the very early days of colour printing which I did by hand using filters for colour balance. By the time I had done numerous test strips, achieving a 10"x8" print would take most of an evening. Unfortunately, I now pick out colour problems very easily and working with optics for much of you working life has also made me rather critical.

Someone has mentioned problems if you are a glasses user, but if that is the case you should be able to see the CA just through them without binoculars. A few years ago I had the latest and greatest new lenses fitted to my glasses, but when I came out of the opticians there was a beautiful bright yellow edge to the ridge tiles on the house opposite. I took them straight back and they fitted the older type of lens and they were fine.

As other people have said, if you are prone to CA then making sure you get the IPD and dioptre settings spot on as it can make a lot of difference.

Looking through lower priced binoculars will always show up CA so it is not a particularly good test for your problem. I suggest as a first step that you should visit some of the local birding spots and talk to someone with high end binoculars and ask them if you can look through theirs and them through your Canons. They will probably be highly delighted as not many people have looked through IS binoculars and it often comes as quite a shock. I'm sure the results this will tell you whether the problem is the binoculars or yourself and you can work from there.

You have a wonderful binocular - stick with it if you can.

Stan

Dear Stan

You very obviously appreciate where I'm coming from because like you I've spend more years than I want to admit to hand printing colour film of all kinds. I've also spent many years colour retouching large format colour transparencies and now critical digital colour printing and running a drum scanning service for pro photographers. As a result I think I can say with some justification that my eyes/brain are quite well calibrated to good observation and identification of colour and imaging issues<G>

It was a useful exercise for me to spend a few minutes looking at a number of lower priced binoculars a couple of days ago if for no other reason that I could better appreciate what I have<G>

I did fix a meeting yesterday afternoon with a member of the local astronomy club who is meant to know binoculars. He was very impressed with mine and could not see any CA when using them. He had brought several pairs of binoculars along with him unfortunately not really top end ones and they all displayed CA of differing amounts which he was not aware of.

This is the first night since getting these Canons that we have had a sky clear of clouds and I've just darted out mid reply to spent a few minutes looking at the stars. This really does show very clearly how fantastic the IS facility is! Without IS on it was totally useless hand holding, but on it was a transformation with the stars showing very clearly as well defined points of light which was a great relief to me.

Once again many thanks Stan.

Cheers Richard

Theo98 · Mar 21, 2017

Richken said:
...This is the first night since getting these Canons that we have had a sky clear of clouds and I've just darted out mid reply to spent a few minutes looking at the stars. This really does show very clearly how fantastic the IS facility is! Without IS on it was totally useless hand holding, but on it was a transformation with the stars showing very clearly as well defined points of light which was a great relief to me...

Cheers Richard

Richard,

I believe your professional career in photography and printing services uniquely qualifies your observations and opinions in the optical realm. I shot semi-pro for 2-3 years around 2005 and greatly appreciated that I had Much to learn, but had no guidance or mentoring and consequently just amateur success. It was a lot of fun, still have all of my Canon L-glass. Now I'm retired and should jump back into it as an enjoyable hobby but alas, already have too many of them to support! :eek!: :-C :-O

If possible, hang on to the 10X42L, putting it through its paces and trials. Your CA sensitivity may not go away, but the optical virtues it does present could smooth over and temper those issues, allowing full enjoyment of terrestrial and astronomical heavenly views! o

Enjoy,

Ted

ceasar · Mar 21, 2017

Richken said:
Thanks Ted.

Yes I did read your posts regarding your interesting viewing problem. I am reasonably reconciled to the prospect of having to ignore the CA that I am seeing in some subject/lighting situations. I very much appreciate reading the feedback from this forum where those posting to this thread have very more experience of the Canon 10x42L IS WP than I have and what is reasonable to expect.

Cheers Richard

Richard,

I had the opportunity to compare a Canon 10x42L IS WP with my Nikon 10x32 EDG for about 15 minutes while I was birding on the deck at Cape May Point, New Jersey a couple of years ago.

When the IS is on while using it I think it would be reasonable for you to expect the best hand held view you will ever have from any 10x binocular!

I could only approach its view with my Nikon 10x32 EDG when I braced both my elbows on the deck's railing while using it.

Bob

kabsetz · Mar 21, 2017

Richard,

I'd dare say that your problems with the Canon and CA come from your expertise in seeing and understanding CA combined with the fact that image stabilization allows one to much more easily see not just detail in the observed image but also any and all optical defects in the instrument.

I have directly compared the Canon 10x42 L IS with all the other top binoculars, and can say that you are not going to find a model that would have significantly less CA. For a CA-free view, you need to view with one of the few premium spotting scopes available, and at low enough magnifications.

Kimmo

BigWok · Mar 21, 2017

I bet it has to do the IPD setting..... The eyecups shape and diameter of them plus the lack of a simple center hinge make getting the IPD on the Canon more difficult. I also experienced lots of CA on my first go with the Canon 10x42.

Here is a tip and how I set the IPD on all my bins.

I look at a CA problem area (bare branches, telephone lines, roof edges, etc.) and move the IPD in and out until I get the best CA free center field image.
Its amazing how much 1mm or less in IPD can make on CA performance.
FWIW I find the Canon 10x42 is excellent at controlling CA, and when it comes to CA its better than my Nikon SE 10x42.....

Richken · Mar 28, 2017

Guys rather than clogging up the forum with lots of short replies may I make just the one reply.

I've been using the binoculars for a few outings now and like them a lot and am sure that they were the correct choice. Yesterday I was in a hide watching wading birds and was amazed to note that even when with my arms supported firmly on the shelf that switching on the IS there was a distinct improvement in the image, which just goes to show that it only takes a very slightest body tremor to degrade the image quality.

I was watching a heron with the water quite well lit and was surprised to see quite significant CA down it's right side with the bird in the middle of the field of view. Your comment would be appreciated. I'm sure that I had the eye pieces set up correctly as I had plenty of time to mess around.

I greatly value all of your suggestions and tips.

Cheers Richard

Theo98 · Mar 28, 2017

Richken said:
I was watching a heron with the water quite well lit and was surprised to see quite significant CA down it's right side with the bird in the middle of the field of view. Your comment would be appreciated. I'm sure that I had the eye pieces set up correctly as I had plenty of time to mess around.

I greatly value all of your suggestions and tips.

Cheers Richard

Richard,

If you mean quite well lit, as in a very high contrast area, even I'd expect to notice some form of CA. Without a pic, very hard to determine what were the lighting dynamics of the overall scene. Personally, I can see with regular vision substantial CA on the water while fishing and facing the horizon, typically with a high noon sun that "lights" the still water with a mirror-like glass glaze. Objects (corks, birds, branches, etc.) that become well under-lit can start displaying stark edge distortions, mostly in the form of CA smears. At times, this situation can appear on a very clear bright day, or even on a bright cloudy day. Then, I pop on my Polarized UVA\B sunglasses and vision returns to normal.

Your day and situation I'm sure, were very different. However, with your understanding, recognition and sensitivity for CA, no doubt you will find certain views that could be disappointments...but are the 10X42L's IS\optical virtues "good-enough" to please 99% of your glassing time to be called, "keepers"?

Ted

Binastro · Mar 28, 2017

Richard,
If the IS was on I would expect one sided CA to be visible on the central Heron.
With IS off I suppose it could settle with the prisms slightly off centre. There is about a one degree maximum shift in the prisms.
It could be that the collimation process has moved one side slightly off centre.

Binastro · Mar 30, 2017

Today I tried to see CA centrally with the 10x42 IS. It was difficult.
However, if one barrel was slightly out of focus I could see CA. I think because my accommodation is small.

The Canon is a short focus instrument. It has many lens elements. These elements will be slightly off centre, slightly wedge shaped. The spacing slightly wrong. The glass mixture slightly wrong also. Everything may be in tolerance but nothing is perfect.

There may be floating focus elements.

The centres of our pupils are not exactly on the optical axes of our eyes. Our eyes have CA. They may not be exactly on the binocular optical axis. This binocular optical axis may wobble slightly.

There are so many variables.

I wonder if CA would be seen with a Newtonian reflector.

A senior optical lecturer told me that even Newtonians can show slight CA if one looks carefully enough. But I cannot remember the reason.

I can see very subtle differences in shades of fabrics, but I don't see the subtle changes reported here by birdwatchers. My eyes are not trained for this.

Professional photographers I think stop down their taking optics a lot to get the best results. I routinely use my lenses at f/1.4 and f/1.2 and get very nice images.

Richken · Apr 10, 2017

Binastro said:
Today I tried to see CA centrally with the 10x42 IS. It was difficult.
However, if one barrel was slightly out of focus I could see CA. I think because my accommodation is small.

The Canon is a short focus instrument. It has many lens elements. These elements will be slightly off centre, slightly wedge shaped. The spacing slightly wrong. The glass mixture slightly wrong also. Everything may be in tolerance but nothing is perfect.

There may be floating focus elements.

The centres of our pupils are not exactly on the optical axes of our eyes. Our eyes have CA. They may not be exactly on the binocular optical axis. This binocular optical axis may wobble slightly.

There are so many variables.

I wonder if CA would be seen with a Newtonian reflector.

A senior optical lecturer told me that even Newtonians can show slight CA if one looks carefully enough. But I cannot remember the reason.

I can see very subtle differences in shades of fabrics, but I don't see the subtle changes reported here by birdwatchers. My eyes are not trained for this.

Professional photographers I think stop down their taking optics a lot to get the best results. I routinely use my lenses at f/1.4 and f/1.2 and get very nice images.

Many thanks for your posting. You or others may be interested in doing the x-rite colour blindness test. http://xritephoto.com/online-color-test-challenge

Yes as regards to stopping down lenses there is a sweet spot for all lenses for in particular sharpness and it is different for each lens design as would be expected.

I've now had quite a bit of time with these binoculars and am quite happy with them. I'm getting a huge amount of pleasure from using them for a wide range of subjcts even if they are a bit heavy when they are slung round my neck. I have got myself a wide non brand neck strap as I felt that the Canon one could draw too much attention to them<G>

Thanks everyone for your very useful comments.

Cheers Richard

Theo98 · Apr 10, 2017

Richken said:
Many thanks for your posting. You or others may be interested in doing the x-rite colour blindness test. http://xritephoto.com/online-color-test-challenge

Yes as regards to stopping down lenses there is a sweet spot for all lenses for in particular sharpness and it is different for each lens design as would be expected.

I've now had quite a bit of time with these binoculars and am quite happy with them. I'm getting a huge amount of pleasure from using them for a wide range of subjects even if they are a bit heavy when they are slung round my neck. I have got myself a wide non brand neck strap as I felt that the Canon one could draw too much attention to them<G>

Thanks everyone for your very useful comments.

Cheers Richard

Great news, Richard!

Nice to hear others enjoying and appreciating their optical prowess. If one can get by their ergonomic quirks, the on going optical rewards of the Canon 10X42L IS are many and the areas of application very diverse! :t:

Appreciate the link to the "X-Rite Color Test", very interesting! My first attempt scored a 12, so I stopped there...not perfect, but good enough for me!! B

Ted

etudiant · Apr 10, 2017

Richken said:
I've now had quite a bit of time with these binoculars and am quite happy with them. I'm getting a huge amount of pleasure from using them for a wide range of subjcts even if they are a bit heavy when they are slung round my neck. I have got myself a wide non brand neck strap as I felt that the Canon one could draw too much attention to them<G>

Cheers Richard

A comfortable and low cost but hassle free way to heft the Canon's weight is the Op-Tech utility strap. It is a continuous loop with sliding clips for connection to the matching clips on your glass.
Use the XL uni-loop clips, as that allows the strap to remain at some distance from your face when you raise the glass to your eyes.
The arrangement ensures that your optics won't hit the deck when one of the clips gives way. Also it is easy to take the glass off, unlike when a harness is involved. The strap is 1" flat nylon, with a 2.75" wide neoprene shoulder section.
I have this kit for both my Canon 10x42 as well as for my scope, a little Nikon ED-50 on a monopod.

Richken · Apr 11, 2017

etudiant said:
A comfortable and low cost but hassle free way to heft the Canon's weight is the Op-Tech utility strap. It is a continuous loop with sliding clips for connection to the matching clips on your glass.
Use the XL uni-loop clips, as that allows the strap to remain at some distance from your face when you raise the glass to your eyes.
The arrangement ensures that your optics won't hit the deck when one of the clips gives way. Also it is easy to take the glass off, unlike when a harness is involved. The strap is 1" flat nylon, with a 2.75" wide neoprene shoulder section.
I have this kit for both my Canon 10x42 as well as for my scope, a little Nikon ED-50 on a monopod.

Many thanks everyone and thanks for your suggestion which sounds like an excellent insurance policy as the idea of the binns falling to the ground would be terrible!

Cheers
Richard

chill6x6 · Apr 29, 2017

I will say this... I'm starting to carry the Canon IS 10X42 along with my primary 7X42/8X42 more and more. It's a great combination. For sure the Canon has never failed me.

Theo98 · Apr 29, 2017

chill6x6 said:
I will say this... I'm starting to carry the Canon IS 10X42 along with my primary 7X42/8X42 more and more. It's a great combination. For sure the Canon has never failed me.

WOW, 100+oz (about 3K grams) around the neck for a days birding excursion...You Da Man, Chuck! :clap: :t:

Except for the slow focus speed (900 degrees CF to Inf.), the 10X42L IS could easily be my main birding instrument. However, I can see my FL 7X42 augmenting a search, then switching to my IS 10X for a positive ID, but forget the in-between 8X carry!! :eek!: :-O

Ted

Richken · May 5, 2017

Just to say that I'm getting so much pleasure from these binoculars and to be able to watch for an hour or two and feel no discomfort what so ever is fantastic. The IS is so good that I wonder why more makers ignore it's benefit in giving a superior viewing experience.

Best wishes all. Richard

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