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Old Friday 19th September 2008, 22:11   #1
ekopa
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Gulls, Normandy, France II

Good evening, everybody!

A few more pics from Normandy in August. As I am proved to be particularly stupid about gulls:), please help me with these (all photos - differents birds)
1-2 juvenile Herring Gulls
3 looked like an adult HG but the bill is huge!
4 don't know, maybe juvenile Lesser Black-Backed Gull (seems to have long wings e.g.)
5 a juvenile Herring Gull surrounded by Common Gulls???

Thanks
Alexey
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Old Friday 19th September 2008, 23:20   #2
JANJ
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Hello Alexey.

Nr 1 looks like a LBBG, although the wings looks a bit short. The greater coverts and tertial pattern together with the tail pattern - which seems to have more dark than on a Herring fits LBBG better. Slim tructure.
Nr 2 is a Herring Gull, compare the pattern on the mentioned parts and note different structure.
Nr 3 is a Herring Gull. Big bill alright but looks biger due to flatish forehead and peculiar small head.
Nr 4 is a Herring, as is nr 5.

Compare some juv. Herrings here with some LBBG and note structure and covert, tetial pattern and overall colour tone between these two species. Also note the variation in the mentioned features.

http://www.gull-research.org/hg/HG1CY08.htm

http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg1cy/lbbg1cyaugust.html

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Old Saturday 20th September 2008, 07:40   #3
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Nr 1 looks like a LBBG
Plumage and structure are more like YLG in my opinion (head dark but ok for young birds). Others pictures ?
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Old Saturday 20th September 2008, 14:37   #4
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Plumage and structure are more like YLG in my opinion (head dark but ok for young birds). Others pictures ?
Plumage and structure look like a classic LBBG!! Note the small en slender bill, dark head en breast, the dark shin, dark brown/blackish color of upper-parts, white primary tips, broad black tailband, tertial pattern is typical for LBBG. And no moulted coverts, the most YLG have dropped/renewed some/many scapulars at August.
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Old Saturday 20th September 2008, 14:41   #5
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Th_SQ has a point of course since some juv. YLG and juv. LBBG can be very similar.
However, the very fresh plumage of Alexey,s bird with no visible wear, second generation scapulars and/or coverts together with bill shape suggest LBBG - since YLG usually is an earlier breeder.

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Old Saturday 20th September 2008, 15:11   #6
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Moulting is variable and can only be seen as supportive feature imho ...
See http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg1cy/e31aug.htm which has started moulting.

Wing (far) too short for me. Not full profile shortens bills. Fully barred greater covers. Incongruously long thick legs ....

Bird seems very close to this one : http://www.gull-research.org/ylg1cy2...cham015348.htm

I'm not saying it's a defo YLG but not convinced it's a LBBG (who cares actually ).

Last edited by Th_SQ : Saturday 20th September 2008 at 15:19.
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Old Sunday 21st September 2008, 19:06   #7
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Quote:
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Moulting is variable and can only be seen as supportive feature imho ...
I agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Th_SQ View Post
Wing (far) too short for me. Not full profile shortens bills. Fully barred greater covers. Incongruously long thick legs ....
I agree that the bird looks shorter winged and longer legged than the average LBBG, but I believe that it is still within the variation of LBBG. The greater covert pattern looks ok for LBBG to me, compare to some of these:
http://www.elisanet.fi/antero.lindho...scus/porto.htm

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Originally Posted by Th_SQ View Post
Bird seems very close to this one : http://www.gull-research.org/ylg1cy2...cham015348.htm
I agree that there are many features that look similar, but there are also many that are dissimilar:
-the YLG has a rufous brown plumage, whereas the subject bird has a cold brown plumage
-the YLG is far more worn than the subject bird
-the YLG has more distinct flank and breast markings that form a stronger contrast against the white belly
-the YLG has a whiter head contrasting sharply against the strongly streaked neck
-the YLG has a stronger bill tip

Quote:
Originally Posted by ekopa View Post
5 a juvenile Herring Gull surrounded by Common Gulls???
The smaller gulls are Mediterranean Gulls:
-they have blackish bills
-the white edges of the scapulars form a conspicuous scaly pattern
-the greater covers are pale grey
-the fresh mantle feathers of one bird are pale grey
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Old Sunday 21st September 2008, 19:20   #8
lou salomon
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i agree with CAU on all (very good) points he made.
1. looks definitely better for LBBG than for YLG for the reasons he mentioned.
i also agree on med gulls for the smaller ones.
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Old Sunday 21st September 2008, 19:35   #9
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Nice to find people who are so sure of their id of gulls ...
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Old Sunday 21st September 2008, 20:02   #10
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Nice to find people who are so sure of their id of gulls ...
But no-one has yet written any too definite comments of the gull
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Old Sunday 21st September 2008, 20:08   #11
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Good points by CAU. The two species in juv plumage are sometimes very difficult to identify on plumage features bill size/shape and structure,but on average the differences are quite clear!

YLG often with a reddish brown hue, lacking in LBBG, but this not always visible in images.
So again - LBBG.

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Old Sunday 21st September 2008, 20:10   #12
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But no-one has yet written any too definite comments of the gull
But we have now!

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Old Sunday 21st September 2008, 22:59   #13
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thanks to everybody!

Interesting and insightful comments as usual!

Alexey
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