Why the plummeting prices? (1 Viewer)

NDhunter said:

Brock and others:
How do you think that the 8x33 HG would compare to the Nikon 8x32, in either LX
or LXL, that is a size that I am thinking about getting, without the budget getting
out of hand.

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Well, the LX is easier to use, because with the Minox, it's hard to get my eyes close enough to the eyepieces with my MCU-2A/P Chemical–Biological Gas Mask on (see link below).

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=215948

From my experience with the LX and LX L, IMESHO, the LX has better optics and there isn't much difference in weight btwn the midsized models (~ 2 ounces) so the "L" version (wish that stood for "L" glass not "Lousy" doesn't offer a great advantage weight-wise like it does in the full sized models.

I'm probably too harsh on the LX L by calling it "Lousy," but I paid a small fortune for mine and was very disappointed, and since Nikon is still making them ("Premier LX L"), I like to give people fair warning that they might be better off with a used LX.

Now, I haven't tried a 8x32 LX L or a 10x32 LX L, so I can't tell you about those, I would have and compare them to my LX before I could give a definitive answer. I'm fairly confident that the 8x42 LX L has the same optical characteristics as the 10x42 LX L. Probably better CA control.

But the full sized 10x42 LX L was not on par with the 10x42 LX, which I also owned (and returned because the coatings were defective). The original LX (Venturer) has better contrast and color rendition (what you see is what you get, with the LX L, the color palette is skewed warmer, i.e., reds are a bit orangey)

The LX L has just as good resolution as the LX, but the coatings are biased toward the yellow to make the views look brighter. Hence, the color palette difference.

Unfortunately, in bright sunlight, the LX L's brightness overwhelms the contrast on brightly illuminated objects, and you lose detail. I could see more detail on a brightly lit leaf with my 8x32 LX than I could with my 10x42 LX L.

In low light or overcast days when you have less concentrated light (i.e., no "hot spots"), the LX L looks brighter, but it still shows more CA than the LX.

At first, I was a "voice in the wilderness" on this topic, but as the LX L's came down in price and more people got them into their hands, I've read more comments along the same lines.

The rubber armoring is also softer on the "LX Ls". The 10x42 I had was colored dark brown, not black, and the smooth soft surface on top of the bin scuffed very easily, as I've read does the Minox, which also has a soft rubber armoring.

It did have a more luxurious feel than the LX, but the trade-off was that it wore much more easily. However, I did not notice an offense rubber odor, and Klingons have more sensitive noses than humans, so I would have noticed.

If money were no object, I would buy both the Minox APO-HG and the LX, and then put the Minox objectives in the LX so I'd have the excellent EPs of the LX and the better color correction of an APO bin. Don't try this at home folks, leave it to the professionals.

Or to make things easier, I'd just buy the 8x32 FL from Camera Land for $749 like Ardy! That's what I'd do. You betcha (don't you miss hearing that phrase?).

I haven't tried a Minox HG yet, and from odors and rumors of odors, I'm not likely to, however, here's a thread that asks the same question you did.

One of the posters had tried both and made a comparison:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2480247/Nikon_LX_L_vs_Minox_HG

In terms of comparisons, I wouldn't put the BD against the LX L. The HG is a whole different line, with silver coatings, etc. I think you'd have to get the HG against an LX L to know what's what.

In terms of odors, I just got a new Zeiss and it smells, too. As for the supposed toxicity of Minox, I'd be skeptical. All new plastics and rubber compounds ooze plasticizers for a while. I recently tried a new Minox BD and I'd say it smelled about the same as this new Zeiss. Now, some of these particular chemicals may be better/worse than others, but my guess is when the smell goes away you've got nothing to worry about. Worry about plastic food containers instead (e.g. bisphenols in Lexan) cause you're EATING that stuff.

Mark

Kammerdiner said:

In terms of comparisons, I wouldn't put the BD against the LX L. The HG is a whole different line, with silver coatings, etc. I think you'd have to get the HG against an LX L to know what's what.

In terms of odors, I just got a new Zeiss and it smells, too. As for the supposed toxicity of Minox, I'd be skeptical. All new plastics and rubber compounds ooze plasticizers for a while. I recently tried a new Minox BD and I'd say it smelled about the same as this new Zeiss. Now, some of these particular chemicals may be better/worse than others, but my guess is when the smell goes away you've got nothing to worry about. Worry about plastic food containers instead (e.g. bisphenols in Lexan) cause you're EATING that stuff.

Mark

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Mark,

Yes, once the rubber armoring has outgassed, the bins should be okay, but until it does, you're breathing in those odors.

However, since you use bins outdoors, that's probably not nearly as harmful as breathing in the "new car smell" inside an automobile.

I find that strong rubber odors bother my lungs. So I probably couldn't tolerate using a Minox or the original Zeiss Victory even if they weren't toxic.

I read about one bin owner baking his Fujinons FMTRs at 110* F until he got the odor out of it!

The problem with doing this, of course, is that you need very good ventilation otherwise you're going to breathe in the chemicals in greater concentration.

I'm not sure how toxic the chemicals are in soft rubber armoring, but they did a study awhile back, which I referred to earlier, that did show the Minox rubber armoring gave off toxic fumes. If I find the original source, I will post it.

Certainly in higher concentrations and chronic exposures, chemical fumes can be harmful. Studies conducted in Eastern Block countries that were heavily industrialized without any pollution control during the "Soviet Error" showed a correlation of lung ailments and cancers, particularly in children, and the nearby chemical processing plants and manufacturing plants where they lived.

Yes, bisphenols in plastics are a more immediate concern to most of us. They have an estrogen-like response in the body. A study conducted in England of sperm counts, comparing sons and fathers, showed that the sons actually had significantly less sperm. They think this is due to bisphenols.

Young girls are also developing breasts at an earlier age due to bisphenols.

I'm in the process of switching from plastic food storage containers to glass bottles. As long as the bottles weren't made in China... with lead... I should be better off.

Backdoor Man said:

The are Made in China.
Kind of a bummer but not the end of the world for only costing $250.
First impression- they have some serious heft to them!
They do have a faint odor too but that usual goes away from stuff like that after awhile (I kind of like the smell of rubber anyways 8-P).
The "armor" on the bins also seems to scratch really easily. The rubber is waay too soft.
The view in them is good tho. I'm able to pick out a lot more trees at the very top of the mountains outside my patio a lot better than with my Nikons.
They are also brighter and a little crisper than the Nikons too.

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Thanks for the infomation. I thought they were made in Germany.But the price does spell like made in China.

Can you wipe the scratch off from the armor? For that, I do like the hard rubber cover like EL.

falcondude said:

Can you wipe the scratch off from the armor?

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It seems like you can. Obviously not deep ones but light ones actually seem to rub off.
And as far as the odor I don't smell it anymore and I've only owned them for about 3 days.

Backdoor Man said:

It seems like you can. Obviously not deep ones but light ones actually seem to rub off.
And as far as the odor I don't smell it anymore and I've only owned them for about 3 days.

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Wow! You must have some lung capacity if you could suck out all those toxic fumes in only 3 days.

Of course, it would have been much funnier if you had written:

And as far as the odor, I still smell it but I've only owned them for about 3 years.

That was a great price! I've seen these bins selling for $549, and considering they were made in China, same as the $200 Leupold Cascades porros, which have the same specs and an internal focuser, that price was a BIG rip off! Cashing in on the German name. Shame on you, Minox.

OTOH, you have to credit Minox for making a lift-up cap to reach the (right/left?) EP diopter adjustment on the center focus that actually works unlike Nikon's first run EDG.

Here's a review of the 10x44 BD:
http://www.campinglife.com/output.cfm?ID=1166851


Back Door Man
By “Little Willie" Dixon

Argh! Huh!
Whoah, yeah.
Yeah! C'mon! Yeah!

Oh, yeah, I'm a — yeah,
I'm a birdwatchin’ back door man,
I'm a back door man.
The men don't know,
But the little birds understand.

While all you birders are tryin' to catch some zzzs,
I'm outside owling with my new Minox BDs — yeah,
'Cause I'm a birdwatchin’ back door man.
The men don't know
But the little birds understand.
All right, yeah!

brocknroller said:

That was a great price! I've seen these bins selling for $549, and considering they were made in China, same as the $200 Leupold Cascades porros, which have the same specs and an internal focuser, that price was a BIG rip off! Cashing in on the German name. Shame on you, Minox.

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Oh c'mon Brock-zilla. I expect better of you! Even if they had the same specs (and they don't) you know by now that just because they look similar (and don't most bins anyway?) it doesn't mean they are. And in this case, they clearly aren't Cascade clones.

Anyway, I live by the maxim that when you see gold selling for the price of silver, back up the truck. No denying the Minox pedigree has some value even if the bins may be only mediocre. $249 shipped made it a no-brainer in my book.

cheers,
Rick

RJM said:

Oh c'mon Brock-zilla. I expect better of you! Even if they had the same specs (and they don't) you know by now that just because they look similar (and don't most bins anyway?) it doesn't mean they are. And in this case, they clearly aren't Cascade clones.

Anyway, I live by the maxim that when you see gold selling for the price of silver, back up the truck. No denying the Minox pedigree has some value even if the bins may be only mediocre. $249 shipped made it a no-brainer in my book.

cheers,
Rick

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Tokyo Rick,

I didn't say they were the same bin, only that they had the same specs, or if you want to be a stickler, similar:

Minox BD vs. Leupold Cascades

ER: Both 16mm
FOV: 5*; 5.2*
Close Focus: 11.15'; 13'
Weight: 28 oz./25.4 oz.
Made in: China
Focus: Both Internal
Diopter adjustment: On the center focus "wheel"

We're not talking about mid-priced roof clones or Chinese big bins clones, which have proven to be rebadged versions of the same bins.

However, if they don't have the same optics, there might have been some corporate spying going on, or one might have been reverse engineered from the other, because what are the chances of two companies bringing out the first porros with internal focusers with close to the same specs within a year or two of each other?

I agree with your maxim (though are you really buying a whole truckload to sell in Tokyo? , but now that I know they are both made in China, I don't think that the Minox badge gives the BD more "pedigree" than the Cascades anymore than an "Astrophysics" badge on a 10.5x70 or 15x70 IF EP big Chinese bin gives it "pedigree" since they come from the same factory in China.

Although I guess you're "banking" on that illusion to sell your truckload of BDs at a nice profit when the economy picks up again!

The Minox focuser does seem better designed (the thin, spiny wheel on the Cascades is Bush League, IMO) so I do think the Minox should sell for a bit more, but I stick by my original statement that at $549, they were a rip off.

And the proof is in the puddin'. If they can afford to sell them for $259 and still turn a profit... well, you're in finance, I expect better of you!

I know a guy who had both bins, in fact, he bought them back to back, and he said that optically, he couldn't see any difference btwn them.

The nose room on the Minox was a bit tighter than the Leupold. With my ample proboscis (wow! I really have learned how to spell the word), I'd be turning the focuser with my nose!

I haven't tried the Minox yet, so I can't confirm or deny his observations. However, I can say that the ergonomic design of the Leupold is superb (SE-like). They feel great in my hands and Leupold put extra rubber cushioning where your thumbs rest on the bottom, which is right where you need it.

However, the focuser was too tight and so was the FOV, which is why I didn't buy them (had them on "spec").

If Leupold or Minox had designed these bins with a degree wider FOV (7.5*), I would own a pair (a good sample, with Chinese bins, you sometimes have to buy more than one to get a good sample - the seller I got them from had SIX pairs, probably part of a truckload .

If you have tired both bins, perhaps then you could explain why the Minox BD deserved to sell for $349 more than the Leupold (a difference of more than the price they are selling for now!). And don't say "pedigree"!

Kahless the Unforgettable Lives!

brocknroller said:

If you have tired both bins, perhaps then you could explain why the Minox BD deserved to sell for $349 more than the Leupold (a difference of more than the price they are selling for now!). And don't say "pedigree"!

Kahless the Unforgettable Lives!

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Kahless clearly gets paid by the word but continues to get the facts wrong.

http://www.leupold.com/observation/products/binoculars/cascades-series/cascades-10x42mm

vs.

the Minox BD under discussion, http://www.minox.com/index.php?id=1657&L=1

Rick

RJM said:

Kahless clearly gets paid by the word but continues to get the facts wrong.

http://www.leupold.com/observation/products/binoculars/cascades-series/cascades-10x42mm

vs.

the Minox BD under discussion, http://www.minox.com/index.php?id=1657&L=1

Rick

Click to expand...

Thanks to the greedy bankers ruining the economy, and the resulting fall off in advertising, the business journal can no longer afford to pay me "per word" but only "per truckload of words".

I was not comparing those two Minox roofs, though I can see from Minox's confounding lettering designations (the Website you posted lists the roof as "BD 10x42 BR" and the porro as "BD 10x44 BP") why this and the sale prices being the same could have caused a miscue (on top of English being our second language).

I was comparing the internal focus Minox BD 10x44 BP porro that normally sells for the inflated price of $529, which is now on sale for $259 @ B & H Photo:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/404637-USA/Minox_62151_10x44_BD_BP_Binocular.html

with the internal focus Leupold 8x42 Cascades porro:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/419002-USA/Leupold_60643_10x42_Wind_River_Cascades.html

brocknroller said:

The Minox focuser does seem better designed (the thin, spiny wheel on the Cascades is Bush League, IMO) so I do think the Minox should sell for a bit more, but I stick by my original statement that at $549, they were a rip off.

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Did anyone ever pay $549 for that? Maybe the $549 is more like a "I wish I could sell this for $549, but I am pretty happy with $249 too". Has anyone compare this to new Bushnell Excursion or Vortex Diamondback considering that they are all Chinese imports?

falcondude said:

Did anyone ever pay $549 for that? Maybe the $549 is more like a "I wish I could sell this for $549, but I am pretty happy with $249 too". Has anyone compare this to new Bushnell Excursion or Vortex Diamondback considering that they are all Chinese imports?

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Falcondewd,

$549 is the MSRP. With German-made bins (even though the "BD BP" is allegedly made in Japan), you usually don't see the kind of steep discounts mit Leica, und Zeiss, und Optolyth, und Docter, und so weiter like you do with Japanese and Chinese bins. That is, unless they are sold w/out the original box.

Yes, the economy is so bad that even Zeiss got into the act a few months ago when Eagle Optics had an "open box" sale (which was really a "no box" sale), discounting Zeiss FLs for $600 off, because somebody forgot to put them in their boxes (yeah, right).

So again, if Zeiss can sell an FL for $600 less than usual and still turn a profit (they would not sell them at a loss), you have to scratch your ridges and wonder how much the mark-up is, even taking into account the high wages and standard of living im Deutschland.

I have seen the BD BP sell for full price at several online stores. Only recently am I seeing the price starting to drop, but not significantly in most cases.

The lowest price I've seen was $399 on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Minox-BD-10x44-BP-Binocular/dp/B000LYTCW2

Eagle Optics sells them for $479:

http://www.eagleoptics.com/binoculars/minox/minox-bd-10x44-bp-binocular

Adorama still has them at $499:

http://www.adorama.com/MX1044BP.html

Night Vision Planet has the highest price at $599:

http://www.nightvisionplanet.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Minox-62151&click=2

So $259 is a steal (but so was $549, but in the other direction .

Hawkster

ah.. we are talking about different binos here. I was following OP's discussion on Minox BD BR (what a strange name) and you are referring Minox BD BP

The BD/BR is selling $250 on both NY camera store and Eagle optics. But the MSRP is ranging from $599 to $749.:-O

falcondude said:

ah.. we are talking about different binos here. I was following OP's discussion on Minox BD BR (what a strange name) and you are referring Minox BD BP

The BD/BR is selling $250 on both NY camera store and Eagle optics. But the MSRP is ranging from $599 to $749.:-O

Click to expand...

For the record, the "R" in BR refers to "Roof" as in prism and the "P" in BP refers to Porro. So there is some method to this alphabetical maze
Bob.

ceasar said:

For the record, the "R" in BR refers to "Roof" as in prism and the "P" in BP refers to Porro. So there is some method to this alphabetical maze
Bob.

Click to expand...

Bob,

That sounds reasonable, although would that mean they are mixing abbreviations for both English and German words?

"B" in German optics designations means “Brille," the German word meaning suitable for spectacle wearers

If so, why repeat it twice?

BD BR
BD BP

"D" usually means "Dach" or roof

The BD BP is not a roof.

I find the double use of letters before and after the configuration overkill unlike most optics companies which only have letters after the name, e.g. Leica BA, Nikon SE, Pentax DCF, etc.

I would like to know what all those letters mean, and I would prefer if Minox used names for their bins rather than letters, though I realize this is a German tradition.

For example, Mercedes uses many letter designations (C, E, S, CLK, CLS, CL, SLK, SL, SLR, R ...). and combines them with numbers C230, E200, etc. The only word on their cars is "Kompressor" on the supercharged models.

Of course, a company can get carried away with both letters and names, e.g., Promaster Infinity Elite ELX ED.

There are other bins named Infinity, Elite, E, LX, and ED, although in the last term, it's a designation for the exotic glass type, so I can see that being necessary, but do they really need two names and three letters?

The thing about German that I like is that many words sound like the English equivalent.

Gras = grass
grün = green
blau = blue
über = over
in = in or im
this = dieses
High Grade = Hoher Grad (as in Minox HG)
drop = tropfen
I = ich
me = mich
to = zu
that = das (also "the" in neuter gender)
and = und
compressor = Kompressor

What I also like is that as with "Wojohowitz," you spells it like you says it, no silent letters like French.

What I don't like about Deutsch is they stick the verb at the end, so while you are reading the sentence you have no idea what action is going on until you get to the end.

I also don't like the way they make compound words by sticking many words togetherinalongstring, the longest beings:

Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz

So long that BF's software won't allow all those letters to be strung together so it separated the "t" and "r" near the end.

(stick that in your Bablefish and watch what comes out!

Das Ende

Brock,
Some where in this forum is an explanation of what the letters mean and I'm too lazy to look for it but I do remember that the R stands for Roof and the P for Porro but only if they are used in the 2nd group of letters.

If I have a problem IDing which kind they are I show one to my dog, who can talk! I show him one and I say to him, "Furtwangler, what kind of Prism is in this binocular?" If he answers "rooof" (or more likely "ruff!" because he never learned to pronounce hochdeutsch), then I know it is a Dach prism. If it is a Porro he will not respond because he doesn't know Italian! After all, he is a DACHshund! Even though he pronounces it Daschhund.

Does that help clear things up?

Bob

falcondude said:

ah.. we are talking about different binos here. I was following OP's discussion on Minox BD BR (what a strange name) and you are referring Minox BD BP

The BD/BR is selling $250 on both NY camera store and Eagle optics. But the MSRP is ranging from $599 to $749.:-O

Click to expand...

Yes, I'm referring to the porros, which are on sale at B & H Photo for the same price - $259.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/404637-USA/Minox_62151_10x44_BD_BP_Binocular.html

ceasar said:

Brock,
Some where in this forum is an explanation of what the letters mean and I'm too lazy to look for it but I do remember that the R stands for Roof and the P for Porro but only if they are used in the 2nd group of letters.

If I have a problem IDing which kind they are I show one to my dog, who can talk! I show him one and I say to him, "Furtwangler, what kind of Prism is in this binocular?" If he answers "rooof" (or more likely "ruff!" because he never learned to pronounce hochdeutsch), then I know it is a Dach prism. If it is a Porro he will not respond because he doesn't know Italian! After all, he is a DACHshund! Even though he pronounces it Daschhund.

Does that help clear things up?

Bob

Click to expand...

Bob,

But what if the buyer is used to reading Japanese manga, which is read right to left? Then the letters in front of the configuration will be the 2nd set of letters.

It's more confusing than it should be, IMO.

Look at Leica. In the designation "Leica BR" the "R" doesn't stand for "Roof" but "Rubber". The "BL" has Leatherette coverings.

Then look at Zeiss with its B/GA designation. The "B" is for "Brille" ("eyeglass," meaning good for eyeglass wearers), the "GA" is for "Gummiarmoring" (instead of an "R" for Rubber armoring).

I'm not suggesting that every optics manufacturing company in the world adopt German lettering (though the Japanese do use "D" = Dach for roofs), but at least the Germans should decide to either stick with German or use English rather than "mix and match" in different ways.

I think things would be less confusing if all optics manufacturers used the Klingon alphabet (tlhIngan pIqaD) in their designations and adopted universal standards with these letters.

http://www.kli.org/pics/piqdemo.gif

Although these fonts will not not reproduce on BF, mid-priced roofs would carry the designation in Klingon alphabet standing for TVR (tunnel vision roofs).

Alpha roofs would carry the designation of OPR (over priced roofs).

Premium porros would be labeled BB4UBP (best bang for your buck porros).

ZR, Hawke, and Promaster ED bins would carry the letters BB4UBR (best bang for your buck roofs).

Once the Klingon Empire forms an alliance with the Borg (and they agree not to assimilate Klingons), Klingons will take over the galaxy, and I will be named Galactic Emperor.

Then no longer will there be concerns about distinguishing ER, rubber armoring, close focus, etc. in designations, because all birding bins will be required to follow uniform KGO ("Klingon Galactic Order") standards.

These include:

1. A minimum usable ER of 17mm

2. A minimum of 7.5* FOV for 8x bins, 6* FOV for 10x

3 Non-toxic rubber armoring (leatherette is for sissies)

4. WP/FP.

5. Minimum close focus of 10'.

6. Minimum sweet spot of 70% of the field of view, regardless of TFOV.

8. Maximum "focus speed" from close focus to infinity of 1 turn, minimum of 1 1/2 turns.

10. High levels of chromatic aberration will be outlawed. Exotic glasses will be standard on all bins.

11. Gov't subsidies will be made available for poorer families to purchase bins (eventually poverty will be eradicated by outlawing "bubble and bust" economies, by providing free college education and technical training, having universal health care, putting caps on CEO salaries, bankers, brokers, hedge fund managers, sports players, actors, and all other overpaid earthlings who drive up the cost of products and services and drive down the benefits to those paid less, adopting a fair and simple tax system, and making trade that is not "free" without also being "fair". Under KGOs, journalism will be among the highest paid professions on earth).

12. All optics companies will be required to produce premium porros as part of their line.

13. All roofs will have wide shallow thumb indents to accommodate both smaller human hands and larger Klingon hands.

14. Nose relief on all bins will allow high bridged nosed and deep-set eyed humans and all Klingons to see the entire FOV.

I am open to listening to suggestions for other KGO standards as long as they do not negate the above 14 standards.

B'rock, GEIW (Galactic Emperor-in-Waiting).

---

When I came to earth from Quo'nos as as child, one of the first movies I watched was "Dr. Doolittle," but I assumed that it was merely a fantasy.

But now I find from reading BF that pigs can speak Latin, and dogs know how to translate German!

I also heard a crow "meow" like a cat in my backyard when my neighbor's cat was prowling through the woods.

What's next? Talking horses?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_PZPpWTRTU

Yes Brock it is all very confusing!

In fact, in Jonathan Swift's definitive biography of Lemuel Gulliver he writes of Gulliver visiting an Island where Horses, indeed, did speak! And the dialect of Pig Latin, properly, Igpay Atinlay, has confused Linguists for ages. It's origin is as obscure as the origins of the Basque language which scholar's now think had it's beginning in the Neander Valley. Although some still favor the theory that it originated in Siberia after an astronomical incident. These people, however, seem to have been influenced by the Starwars Conspiracy Theory.

As for your binoculars and your galactic ambitions? If only you were able to channel that Greatest of all Optical Geniuses; Ming the Merciless..............?!!
Most Cordially,
Bob

Yes, the economy is so bad that even Zeiss got into the act a few months ago when Eagle Optics had an "open box" sale (which was really a "no box" sale), discounting Zeiss FLs for $600 off, because somebody forgot to put them in their boxes (yeah, right).

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Nah, those are just the ones Frank sends back in one month.

I send some back too, usually with the neck strap sitll in plastic bag.