8x42 FL five weeks later (1 Viewer)

Updates:

My FL seems flawless, and I am now accustomed to the quick-geared but heavy feeling and smooth focus. There have been several reports of problems with this model, problems with Zeiss warranty service, and suspicions concerning the models ruggedness and integrity. I can only hope mine continues this well. I have not seen the ED Chinese binoculars, so I can't say if the FL is really any better. Some people don't see CA as an issue at all, yet I feel very fortunate to live in this age of its eradication, to experience this advance, rather than take it for granted as future generations will. Still, maybe I wasted a bunch of money in buying the overpriced big name brand. But I would not let this thing go, even if somebody offered me more than I payed.

Lens caps, strap, case are all first rate. Consider the objective caps, for example. I thought from the "captive" objective caps on my wife's EL that are always coming off the lens, and falling off the binocular entirely, and from those on my Fujinon 10x50 that soon broke, that I would never like these things. But the ones of the FL are so much heavier and tighter fitting--you have to let a little air out under the edge or they won't go on well! Now, one of these things is just a little bit of rubber that might cost fifty cents to stamp out, but I know it runs the price way up because it's got Zeiss written on it. But you are not paying for rubber by the pound here, you are paying for design. Somebody at Zeiss who is good, and cared, and is well payed, designed those little thingies, and the other bits too. They make a hard day easier.

Compared to my first good roof bino, the Trinovid BA which the FL replaced, the optical difference is frankly large, not small. I take the BA out from time to time to check this, and it is easy to see. Like all truly subjective things, this seems objective to me! The rendering of color and detail in the Zeiss are not sufficiently described by "bright" and "contrasty". Delicate and subtle are better words.

Comparison to the 7x50 Fujinon FMT-SX, a marine/astronomy bino that is my household optical reference, is a little more interesting. The small apparent field of the Fujinon, so well lit by those huge prisms, and so easy to look at all over with the 7mm exit pupils, still gives a smashing impression of brilliance, and it beats the Zeiss as dusk gets deep. (birders, I hope you get a look through one of these admittedly bird-unworthy monsters some day just to see what I mean) But that is largely a design difference, not a quality thing. It looks to me like the basic optical quality of the two is equal, except for the Fujinon's only significant optical weakness, CA. But that alone would move it into definite second place for daytime usage, even if the FMT magically lost half its size and weight and was given a focus knob. On the stars, however, the two are indistinguishable, except for the difference in magnification. Neither displays bright stars without slight misshaping into somewhat irregularly shaped spots, but they are equal, and among the two best binoculars I have seen in this way. Both display stars with the same colorful brilliance, and give the impression that if the field was filled with brightness like that seen like in each point, you would be instantly blinded. There is definitely an uncomfortable brilliance in there.

Please indulge a final comparison, with a binocular that is long gone, but of nostalgic importance to me. I have been fascinated by the observing pursuit since my plastic bodied "Cub Scout" 3x Galilean uncoated singlet-lensed field glass, acquired when I was 10 years old. It was a toy for sure, but it moved my soul. Does the FL really beat that first mind boggling experience of magnification? Well, sure. It shows essentially no CA!
Ron

For detailed information on my experience with Zeiss warranty service, see my thread, "Zeiss warranty service -- how good?" The focus on mine has always been quick, very light and instantly responsive, now perhaps even a bit more so, after two trips to Chester, VA. I had no problem with the out-of-the-box fit and finish, but the all-black exterior looks a bit plain compared to others. I'm OK with that.

My own troubles started when I fell on mine with my full body weight while it was being held in my extended hand. The accident fractured the right-hand housing near the hinge. Another brand (Leica, Swarovski), with a magnesium body or whatever, might not have fractured, but I have a tough time believing it would have survived this mishap without requiring professional repair. As far as I could tell, the prisms and objectives were not dislodged or damaged by my accident, but I'll never know for sure. I've had cheap binoculars that became hopelessly miscollimated after minor bumps.

Chris,
Yes, I have followed your story with sympathy. I believe that under such an impact, a composite material will either flex and make it unscathed, or rupture, as your FL unfortunately did. Metal would bend, more or less. Bent metal would probably be closer to useful in a life or death type situation. But, which would be easier to repair? Do Leica and Swaro techs really know how to straighten out a bent tube? That would take some very fine hand work. They would probably just replace the tube, just like was done for the Zeiss.

Arguments over the material aside, it is inexcusable that they didn't do a good job on the repair. I would think if you just raised some more hell they ought to give you a whole new binocular. (Hello, Mr. or Ms. Zeiss rep assigned to monitor this forum. Leica and Swaro pros have piped up here from time to time, but never you. Don't you think a little reputation-saving is in order?) Good luck Chris, and keep us posted on the continuing story please.
Ron

ronh said:

Arguments over the material aside, it is inexcusable that they didn't do a good job on the repair. I would think if you just raised some more hell they ought to give you a whole new binocular. (Hello, Mr. or Ms. Zeiss rep assigned to monitor this forum. Leica and Swaro pros have piped up here from time to time, but never you. Don't you think a little reputation-saving is in order?) Good luck Chris, and keep us posted on the continuing story please.
Ron

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Umm, it's Curtis.

WRT the original repair, I thought there was a good chance they'd send me a new binocular. They were under no obligation to do so, of course. I was just hoping they'd be super generous and nice. I also did some preliminary shopping for new bins, in case they were total jerks. As it turned out, for both repairs they treated the immediate problem, but they didn't update or replace any parts not directly related to the repair. I thought they might replace the eyecups, since mine are the small ones from early production. Nope. During the first repair, an objective housing and retaining ring that were dinged in an earlier mishap were left untouched. It was this same lens that got the fungus, and for that repair it appears that they replaced the objective and related parts. I'm annoyed by the errors in reassembling the rubber armor and the (IMO) misadjusted close focus, but I'm not going to send the bins back just for that. If I had it to do again, though, I might ask them to send the bins back to Germany.

Before I bought the Zeiss FL (mine is one of the first sold to retail customers in the U.S.), I looked long and hard at the Leica Ultravid, and I had a lot of correspondence with one of their dealers. My online research told me that Leica's U.S. service department was bunch of hacks, so between the two brands, that part of it appeared to be a wash. In any case, I couldn't get with the focus of the Leica: too rough and not close enough. Prior to that summer of 2004, I was mostly looking forward to buying a Swarovski EL. I have a Swaro scope, which is exquisite, and reports of their U.S. service are usually very favorable.

did not know that about zeiss. Big disadvantage compared to swaro and the new brands super high customer case.

Curtis,
Sorry, I'll try to get your name right.

I wonder if there's any way of getting information on the total number of warranty claims that are made against given makes and models. There's a pretty strong freedom of information movement afoot in some parts.
Ron

Ron,

Thank you for the update. I have to say that I feel much the same way about my 7x42 FL. It is interesting though. I have often found that even though some binoculars might not be as bright or as CA free as the Zeiss they do have their own "flavor" that I prefer at times. Maybe much the same could be said of your Trinovid.

Curtis,

I don't remember reading about that experience and I thought I kept fairly well up to date on that type of thing. For what it is worth the first 7x42 FL that I purchased had a bit of a problem with the alignment. I sent it in for them to take a look at it. They gave it the general "once over inspection and cleaning" and then returned it to me. The problem arose when I opened the package to find the focus knob/diopter separated from the body. That is not the most reassuring message to be sent to a customer.

Arguably though my two subsequent dealings with Zeiss NA have been very good. The first one they replaced the bin at no charge (factory defect). The second one the binocular had to be sent back to Germany. Three months and $200+ dollars later (my fault as I dropped the bin and knocked off the focusing knob) I had a new binocular again along with a cleaning kit and hat. I would have preferred faster service but....beggars...choosers......



Not the best and not the worst customer service in my experience.

After the repairs, star images are better than when my binoculars were new, and I didn't perceive any collimation or alignment problems then. I have beginning signs of cataracts, which is common at my age (64), so it's hard for me to get absolutely clean stars through any binocular or scope.

Total number of warranty claims would be meaningless without sales figures, too.

ronh said:

There have been several reports of problems with this model, problems with Zeiss warranty service, and suspicions concerning the models ruggedness and integrity. I can only hope mine continues this well. I have not seen the ED Chinese binoculars, so I can't say if the FL is really any better.

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ronh i owned the FL in 8x42 a few years ago and those abbe konig prisms are marvelous but i prefer the sweet spot in the swaro binos over the slight edge in brightness of the zeiss. Since i am not a birder, CA is a non issue. Hunters dont see alot of CA.

Regarding customer service and warranty, i am pretty confident that as long as swaro is in business, i will get the red carpet treatment and who knows maybe in 10 years when the old EL is cancelled, i'lll send in mine to get fixed and they will upgrade me....

chinese binos are great for the money but who knows how long they will be around plus i dont support commies if i can help it

My regrets, but this thread has turned into a comment on customer service.

From what I have read above, and from my own experience, I can say that Swarovski, SONA, customer service is very good, or many would say the best, as many reports have been here. I also have had very good experience with Nikon service, they to:t have met my every expectation.

It's pretty hard to rant about alpha optics anymore, with all the concern about quality and service. Oh well, that's what I get for saying I haven't had any problems with my Zeiss FL yet.

Seriously, though, what I am learning is that many of you have had a lot of trouble with various expensive binoculars. Which is best, and worst, aside, I am surprised by this. I figured a good bino would almost certainly last a lifetime if not abused. I've never even had a cheap one develop a problem.

What's going on here? Does this forum/topic automatically select users with problems? Do some people just have all the good luck, and some all the bad? Are you guys rough on your equipment? As far as the FL goes, it is beginning to sound like perhaps there were design problems when it was first introduced, that have been solved. But so many of you can offer comments on the failures of this or that bino, and the quality of service from this or that company, it's scary.

Do alpha binoculars just break a lot?
Ron

Well I bought two pairs of Steiner Discovery (peregrine XP) 10 x 44 earlier this year, my family and I use them pretty much daily and both are like new...so far:t:

However, one minor problem occurred with the rather nice case that they come with. The metal 'Steiner Germany' label is attached through the case fabric and the metal inside is covered with a strip of leather to avoid scratching the binoculars when stored. The strip became unglued in both cases!
Tut tut; I used some archery fletching glue and ten seconds later, problem solved.

ronh said:

What's going on here? Does this forum/topic automatically select users with problems?

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People with problems are more likely to post than those who don't have them.

As far as the FL goes, it is beginning to sound like perhaps there were design problems when it was first introduced, that have been solved.

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What problems are you referring to?

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I don't get out for birding or wildlife viewing as often as I'd like. But we just got back from a trip to northern Arizona. We watched a lot of distant birds, mountain tops and stars. In one incident, I was looking through the Zeiss FL 8x42 at some distant nighthawks as they wheeled in the evening light, and I could see the characteristic bands near the ends of their wings. My wife, looking through a comparable (and very good) Minolta Activa, said, "How do you see that? I can't see those markings!" At the Grand Canyon I was reading tag numbers on California Condors before other people could see the tags. The view through the Zeiss was so incredibly sharp and bright, and the focus so quick and accurate, that I felt a real sense of vindication for having bought them (in 2004 they cost a lot less than now). I often look through these binoculars at just about anything in sight, just for the sheer joy of enjoying their performance. WRT service: conceding that Zeiss's North American service has not been as perfect as I'd like, they are there. I wonder: who would repair my wife's Minolta if a product-specific part were to fail? Does Konica repair them? Do they just say, "No parts. Get a new binocular!"?

Hello Curtis,

I often refer to my Zeiss binoculars as fine instruments. Lesser binoculars, like the Activa, may be great tools. This is not to write that other marques do not reach the same standards, but the Zeiss design compromises suit me very well.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood