Birders and photographers (1 Viewer)

Life is too chuffing short to get het up about other people in a hide. Enjoy what you got when you got it 'cos you are very long time dead. The magic word is tolerance, show it, give it!

Bubbs said:

Vivian is possibly not in the minority on this occasion. The fact that more photographers than birdwatchers have replied, with their usual ignorance of others, speaks volumes. The sole reason why I never visit Cley anymore is simply because the people with their easily acquired credit card cameras have made life unbearable for many.

Hand the hides back to the people they were built for....birdwatchers.

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Wow didn't realise I was no longer a birdwatcher because I carry a camera. I think you'll find more birdwatchers hve replied because pretty much all of us that have are birdwatchers and photographers, we do not see tham as seperate entities.

I'm astounded that in all the times I've taken my scope and my camera into a hide somewhere that I've not yet come across a bigoted individual that has suggested that either piece of equipment or the noise made by them is something that offends them.

And yet so much bigotry on BF?

Agree with the comments above regarding birding/photography. I was an amateur photographer with an interest in nature before I took up birding. During the 80's and early 90's twitching was my main priority before I started travelling abroad for birding holidays. My interest in photography was re-kindled by these holidays, in fact I bought my first DSLR from a BF member after joining this forum. I've therefore decades of birding experience and consider myself a birder who takes photographs.
If other members on here don't like that then go elsewhere and find another hide as I'm going to continue doing what I enjoy. The attitude of some members on here is disgraceful and elitist.

There are some people who are only happy when they are moaning about something.

John

Vivian Darkbloom said:

To acquire a degree of proficiency in birding takes experience and many years of patient diligence and application. There is no short cut.
In the past the same could be said for skill in photography. The ability to produce a picture of quality in the field demanded field craft and artistic flair.
Unfortunately digital cameras have removed that hurdle. Pointing the camera at an object and Firing off a random barrage of shots will probably produce something worthwhile eventually.
The simile of monkeys, typewriters and Shakespeare comes to mind. I just don't see why I have to be in the same room while the monkeys labour noisily away and disturb myself and others.

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A quote from the Daily Telegraph:-

In 2003 the Arts Council for England paid £2,000 for a real-life test of the theorem involving six Sulawesi crested macaques, but the trial was abandoned after a month.

The monkeys produced five pages of text, mainly composed of the letter S, but failed to type anything close to a word of English, broke the computer and used the keyboard as a lavatory.

Perhaps if you are going to use a simile you should pick one that supports your side of the argument rather than that of the other side

I've seen several references to the sound of "motor drives" here. Isn't that something you only find in a film camera? Or is this term now being applied to continuous shooting with DSLRs too? It sounds similar with the mirror slapping up and down and the shutter opening and closing, but that the noise of the motor advancing the film is missing.

I haven't heard any of the larger mirrorless cameras yet. Are they much quieter? They ought to be, having no mirror, and the shutter is a bit smaller than "normal". My old compact camera is very quiet, just a faint click, click, click of the tiny shutter.

And, getting back to the original subject, would it be less annoying if the cameras were quieter?

Vivian Darkbloom said:

To acquire a degree of proficiency in birding takes experience and many years of patient diligence and application. There is no short cut.

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...and having knowingly met at least four of the "photographers" who have so far posted on this thread I can confirm that they have acquired a very high proficiency in birding. I also have no reason to doubt that others who have claimed many years of birding experience are not telling the truth.

Vivian Darkbloom said:

In the past the same could be said for skill in photography. The ability to produce a picture of quality in the field demanded field craft and artistic flair.
Unfortunately digital cameras have removed that hurdle. Pointing the camera at an object and Firing off a random barrage of shots will probably produce something worthwhile eventually.

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Randomly firing away with good digital camera equipment will produce the occasional reasonable shot (but so would randomly firing away with a non digital camera). To consistently produce good/excellent results though, fieldcraft, artistic flair and knowledge of the capabilities of the equipment used are still essential - and the four posters mentioned above all consistently produce superb results.

This doesn't mean that all those who photograph birds are competent birders, or produce good results. I know excellent birders who regularly take photos but only produce mediocre record shots, photographers who take stunning photos (and have the field craft needed to get these) but don't always identify the subject correctly, and others who are proficient in neither.

Vivian Darkbloom said:

I just don't see why I have to be in the same room while the monkeys labour noisily away and disturb myself and others.

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If you visit any public area, then whether you like it or not you may have to put up with any activities that are allowed in the area (including having your birdwatching "disturbed" by photographers, other birdwatchers, family groups, and in some areas - though not usually on reserves - dog walkers and cyclists).

pshute said:

I've seen several references to the sound of "motor drives" here. Isn't that something you only find in a film camera? Or is this term now being applied to continuous shooting with DSLRs too? It sounds similar with the mirror slapping up and down and the shutter opening and closing, but that the noise of the motor advancing the film is missing.

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Yes, motor drives are only something that you find in film cameras - all you hear with digital cameras is a burst or sound from the mirror/shutter (as long as any 'beeping' noises have been switched off).

pshute said:

And, getting back to the original subject, would it be less annoying if the cameras were quieter?

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Unfortunately I think that would only mean that the objections concentrated on photographers "taking over the entire hide", "hogging the best spots", or "getting too close to and/or flushing a bird" - all things that can equally apply just as often to birdwatchers who don't have a camera in their possession.

People just need to learn to make allowances for, and get along with, the activities of others (as long as they aren't doing anything really stupid - and both some birdwatchers and some photographers do occasionally over step the mark).

Farnboro John said:

1. All the photographers on here have given reasoned arguments. The anti-photographers have not. Who is guilty of ignorance?

2. Most of the photographers on here have clearly demonstrated that they are birdwatchers, many with years and years of experience. Perhaps by your reasoning they have more right to the hides than you.

3. Photographers in hides have paid the same as the people with noisy children, those who drone on about how bad birding is these days and rustle crisp packets, eat garlic sausage, fart and generally lower the tone of the place. They deserve the same level of consideration from fellow birders (funnily enough, the birder/photographers on here think of "fellow birders". Its the anti-photographers that want to compartmentalise bits of the birding community and rate some bits above others. What does that mean?)

4. My big lens was bought out of my late father's legacy. Consider that the next time you want to blather on about what equipment costs.

5. If you're in the same hide as me, be sure to keep very quiet and not disturb any other hide occupants at their varied approaches to birding.

John

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I couldn`t agree more with you John,I have been photographing birds for 30yrs since I was 15 I started on film (Canon Ae-1 program)then progressed to digital.I don`t bother getting involved in arguments in hides ,through a network of contacts built up over years of trust I simply drive off to woodlands etc where I have permits.I tend to take better photographs when i`m on my own anyway.

Steve.:t:

In 2003 the Arts Council for England paid £2,000 for a real-life test of the theorem involving six Sulawesi crested macaques, but the trial was abandoned after a month.

The monkeys produced five pages of text, mainly composed of the letter S, but failed to type anything close to a word of English, broke the computer and used the keyboard as a lavatory.

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"It was a hopeless failure in terms of science but that's not really the point," said Geoff Cox ,of Plymouth University's MediaLab, who designed the test. So what were the academics trying to achieve? "It wasn't actually an experiment as such, it was more like a little performance," said Mr Cox.

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Mono

If a lot of the anti posters are to be believed then I'd be totally unwelcome in any hides they might also be in. Not only do I have a limited knowledge of a what's around, I carry a camera & I also bring my kids along sometimes. I'd rather have them with me than stuck in front of a TV\PC\xbox.

TBH I thougt our wildlife was there for anyone to enjoy. Maybe I was mistaken!!

Richard G said:

I'd be totally unwelcome in any hides they might also be in.

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You'd be welcome in any hide I was in ...unless your kids do good replicas of elephant dances

All ye posters moaning the presence of others in a hide, rejoice that you have hides to find someone in to moan about.

I am hard pressed to recall more than one or two within 300 km of me, i.e. be thankful some kind soul or organisation has built the things for you.

Jos Stratford said:

You'd be welcome in any hide I was in ...unless your kids do good replicas of elephant dances

All ye posters moaning the presence of others in a hide, rejoice that you have hides to find someone in to moan about.

I am hard pressed to recall more than one or two within 300 km of me, i.e. be thankful some kind soul or organisation has built the things for you.

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Well said Jos,I agree with you wholeheartedly,no birders within 60 miles of my patch,nearest thing to a hide I built myself

Farnboro John said:

1. eat garlic sausage, fart and generally lower the tone of the place.

John

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To be fair they both go kinda hand in hand. :h?:

I can honestly say that I've ever noticed any problem at all here in Wales. Between photographers and birders I mean - not the garlic sausage and farting issue. If it gets too busy (rare) I just leave. I enjoy the peace , tranquility and solitude when I'm "birding"

Rich

There's so many of us with different degrees of interest in birding and photography and differing priorities governing how we behave when we are out, that there's always going to be people not entirely happy with being in close proximity to others. The only answer is to search out whats best for you.

I bird alone mostly, with curious friends and their kids occasionally and have attempts at crap photography every now and then. I just have to adapt to whats most suitable for the occasion, the company and the location.

Cley's not the most obvious place I can think of for quiet reflection though. The last time I was there it was like Butlins. Which in terms of conservation fundraising can only be a good thing.

To veer slightly off thread, some contributors to Birdforum tend to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut when responding to others. Unless its intentional maybe a bit more thought before posting would be appropriate. I've probably offended some curmudgeonly bugger now.

Having said all that, people that fart in hides should be taken out and shot.

angusmcoatup said:

Having said all that, people that fart in hides should be taken out and shot.

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only shot :-O

BobCesme said:

Well said Jos,I agree with you wholeheartedly,no birders within 60 miles of my patch,nearest thing to a hide I built myself

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I'll huff and I'll puff...

angusmcoatup said:

Having said all that, people that fart in hides should be taken out and shot.

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I remember an incident in a hide at Titchwell RSPB a number of years back when a Collared Pratincole drew an early morning crowd. One 'birder' delighted in making rasping noises from his rear much to the pleasure of his school boy humoured mates and to the disgust of others in the full hide. Unfortunately no-one had a gun.

On a recent trip to India I visited the Keetham Sanctuary (Sur Sarovar) where they charge 10,000 rupees per camera, so for me with stills & video that would have cost about £28 in addition to the entry fees. Needless to say the cameras stayed in the vehicle and if I was ever in the area again that would be one reserve to avoid. It's a shame they don't charge the locals the same to ride their motorbikes around the lake shore, I know which is more detrimental to the wildlife and other visitors' enjoyment.

Like many I'm a birder turned photographer so should I ban myself from public hides to please those selfish individuals who think they own the place because they've paid their entry fee?

Time to relegate this and other similar threads to Ruffled Feathers methinks.

( fart and generally lower the tone of the place )

After wasting time reading the tripe on this thread, FWIW I reckon farting would RAISE the tone.. :t: :-O :-O

BobCesme said:

...nearest thing to a hide I built myself

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Same here, my effort overlooking my feeding station and swamp.