Zeiss and the US Market (1 Viewer)

Following on from a previous thread, I can't help but notice some dissatisfaction regarding Zeiss in the States.

Why is this happening? Lack of customer service? Poor marketing strategies? Are Zeiss concentrating rather more so on the European market as opposed to the States? Does Nikon/Swarovski/Leica etc have a stronghold there? I don't know. I'd be interested to hear the views from across the pond.

For the record, I'm very very happy with my FL's

Regards

The high end bino scene in Houston, Texas, in my current experience, looking at gun shops, "real" camera stores, birding outlets and dedicated birding/astronomy/nautical optics shops is almost exclusively Zeiss. Leica and Swarovski, followed by Pentax and others. The real outsider is Nikon for SE and Venturer LX/HG models. The absence of Swift is unfortunate, as they have the best customer service in the business, hands down. I have also had great service from Zeiss, and much aggravation from Leica and Nikon.

Sorry, Andy, I hope I don't "muddy the waters."

I mentioned in another thread that in my experience Zeiss is almost invisible in groups of experienced birders here. I see Leica, B&L Elite and Swarovski, in that order. Sometimes Nikon. Occasionally Brunton (but they haven't been out very long; their numbers are increasing). Almost never Zeiss, especially post-1980s Zeiss. Until the FL came along, and I read good reports in this forum, I wouldn't have considered Zeiss. Considering that Zeiss is one of the all-time revered brands of German optics, there must be some explanation for their invisibility among American birders. Is it poor marketing? Mis-conceived products? I don't know. But it does appear that Zeiss has some work to do to restore their reputation and desirability.

Regarding service, some Internet scuttlebutt had good experiences with Zeiss service in the USA, good experiences with Swarovski, bad experiences with Leica, and terrible experiences with Nikon. I searched back several years for this stuff. AFAIK, there are no published statistics available to the public concerning service from optics manufacturers/importers, so anecdotes are the only source of information. Typically, bad experiences get much greater play than good experiences, so one can only try to balance the description of the problem, how it was resolved or not resolved, and even the attitude of the customer as reflected in his post. Sometimes it's clear that the problem is the customer, not the merchant!

So, Texas seems ok, looks like it may be on the West coast then?

helenol said:

So, Texas seems ok, looks like it may be on the West coast then?

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On my recent trip to Alaska, I got a somewhat different impression: I was rather surprised at the number of Zeiss Victory carriers. I don't know, however, how qualified these people were. But at least the impression that Zeiss was not present in the US got a bit of a correction as far as I am concerned.

Robert

helenol said:

Following on from a previous thread, I can't help but notice some dissatisfaction regarding Zeiss in the States.

Why is this happening? Lack of customer service? Poor marketing strategies? Are Zeiss concentrating rather more so on the European market as opposed to the States? Does Nikon/Swarovski/Leica etc have a stronghold there? I don't know. I'd be interested to hear the views from across the pond.

For the record, I'm very very happy with my FL's

Regards

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I don't know how representative these opinions (including my own below) are. At least around here (Washington, DC suburbs) the classic 7x42 and 10x40 were popular as high end binoculars and can still be found in birder's hands. My impression was that the Victory line for some reason didn't catch on. But notice that Eagle Optics (a very good and well-known on-line retailer) currently is sold out on all the new FL series (7, 8, 10)x42. Thus it looks like those may be selling well. I still have the Leica 8x32 BN that I purchased in 1993 but I am considering eventually buying one of the FLs.

Dalcio

Greetings!

In this area of the U.S. (Utah), Zeiss is widely sold, but rarely ever seen in the hands of birders in the field. Every optics store in the area has at least 3 or 4 Zeiss models to choose from, including two stores that have just about every Zeiss model currently being produced.

However, from my own experiences seeing what people are actually using in this area, I have YET to run into anybody using Zeiss (other than myself - my Compact 8X20 Victory binoculars). Most common in this area seem to be Leica and Nikon, with a few Swarovski birders about.

Local stores must be selling a lot of Zeiss binoculars to SOMEONE in this area, judging from the wide variety of Zeiss optics available in so many local stores. My guess is that Zeiss is mostly being sold to hunters and law enforcement, segments of the binocular using public I don't typically interract with. Next time I'm in an optics shop, I think I'll ask what types of people are buying Zeiss locally.

Best wishes,
Bawko

I do most of my birding in New Mexico and southeastern Arizona. In the hands of birders I meet in the field, Leica and Swarovski binoculars are the most widely owned. Vintage Trinovids and new Ultravids are vastly outnumbered by the BA/BN Ultra line, which is quite common. The 42mm Swarovski EL is more common than the SLC, perhaps because the EL has been marketed specifically to birders, while the SLC is big among hunters. I also meet a lot of people with Eagle Optics Rangers. I have encountered a fair number of people with Nikon LX/HG and a small number with Nikon SE. The rest varies widely. I have met only one birder using Brunton, only a few with Pentax, none with Minox, etc.

Zeiss users are among the smaller minorities. I have met only one person using a Zeiss Victory, and have met four using the ClassiC, either 7x42 or 10x40. Not one retailer in New Mexico has Zeiss FL, nor does one have a ClassiC 7x42. On the other hand, at least two retailers have all of the EL models, and one has several SLCs. One retailer has all Leica models. For me to handle an FL I would have to drive at least 375 miles, IF any retailer in Denver has one.

Leica hosts annual "Leica Day" at photographic stores nationwide, featuring cameras and binoculars, and in New Mexico they have a booth annually at the Festival of the Cranes at the Bosque del Apache NWR. Swarovski has retail outlets in malls in many larger cities.

Zeiss has no such presence. As I stated in another thread, one retailer in the San Francisco Bay Area dropped Zeiss from her lineup because she found them to be unresponsive to her needs. She now handles only Swift and Swarovski, two companies whose customer service she considers exceptional. One retailer in New Mexico has not had Zeiss in stock in more than a year. When I asked about it, a staff member said that they "never hear from the sales rep."

At least in this part of the country, the only Zeiss FLs that will be bought will be by people who have learned about them by conducting their research on the Internet.

Hi Helen,

I tried to reply to your email but the forum site was very slow and I stopped the message. You are right.

In the San Francisco Bay Area (California, USA) Zeiss seems to push its binoculars in sproting goods stores, often these are gun stores. This is fine with me but these stores seem to be dropping Zeiss and keeping Swarovski.

Nikon and Leica sell to camera shops. The sad thing I see in this area is Leica is sold as the "high end" binocular and only the low end of the Nikon line is offered in these camera shops. I have yet to see a Nikon SE in a local camera shop. I have mentioned this to these shops and gotten a blank look for my effort.

The other day I looked at the Zeiss USA website and the Zeiss Uk site. The USA site doesn't seem to know about the FL series. The UK site has all the latest info about the FL.

Rich

Rich,
I agree completely. In the Bay Area Swarovski and Zeiss are mainly sold in gun shops. Leica and low-end Nikon, Pentax, and others are sold in camera stores, since they are the same brands that make cameras. Side by side comparisons are therefore hard to do. Orion used to have a wide assortment of brands on display, but now markets their own and only a few others.
With regard to Zeiss, I recently had to return two ClassiC 10x40s in a row to Cabella's because of misalignment right out of the box. Thinking quality control of high-end binocs might be limited to Zeiss, I then had to return an Ultravid 10x42BL to one dealer because of bad eyecups, and a Red 8x32BN to another because of very bad misalignment. It's hard to believe that roof prisms are making it to the street misaligned, but there it is. The only solid performer that I've found is Swarovski. They always satisfy, and customer service is superb.
elkcub

Getting back to the original post, don't think there is any real dissatisfaction with Zeiss itself. I think its more a matter of increasing competition beginning 10-12 years ago; the Victory, which was a disaster; and not having a viable spotting scope. With the new FL scopes and bins, Zeiss appears to be back in it. I say yahoooooooooo...the more players the better.

15 years ago, it seems that the high end roofs to have were either the 7x42 and 10x40 Classics, or the B&L Elites. A few folks had Leitz. I'm surprised the 8x30 Classics werent' more popular. I came close to buying those instead of 8x32BAs back in the mid 90's.

I started birding about 11 years ago and it seems that birding in the US itself sort of took off then, or maybe shortly thereafter. About that time Leica had bought Leitz and was putting out the BAs and Swarovski the SLCs. Swarovski then put out the "revolutionary" ELs which were aimed at, and marketed to, the birding community. Zeiss sat on their ass, oops I meant "rested on their laurels" abit, then put out the Victory which never recovered from a widespread initial opinion of poor resolution and awkward ergonomics.

I don't believe Nikon had a high end roof until the LXs, which came out about the same time as the ELs and were almost 7 ounces heavier. I'm glad to see they've come out with a lighter version, and I may well buy a pair, but currently the competition is probably greater than its ever been and picking up market share will be difficult.

Unfortunaltely B&L appears to have fallen by the wayside with new highend products.

Something I have learned from this thread is that it appears that optics retailers may be more prominent out west than in the midwest, or at least central Illinois. Around here, if someone finds out you spent more than $50 for a pair of bins they think you escaped from a mental instituition. Of course they wouldn't bat an eyeash at droppng several times that at a NASCAR race.

Zeiss marketing may not get to the mom & pop optics shops like they should, but I hardly think they will only pick up sales through web surfing. The FLs have been advertised in the birding mags for the last 2-3 months.

Zeiss Ohio

Jonathan B. said:

I do most of my birding in New Mexico and southeastern Arizona. In the hands of birders I meet in the field, Leica and Swarovski binoculars are the most widely owned. Vintage Trinovids and new Ultravids are vastly outnumbered by the BA/BN Ultra line, which is quite common. The 42mm Swarovski EL is more common than the SLC, perhaps because the EL has been marketed specifically to birders, while the SLC is big among hunters. I also meet a lot of people with Eagle Optics Rangers. I have encountered a fair number of people with Nikon LX/HG and a small number with Nikon SE. The rest varies widely. I have met only one birder using Brunton, only a few with Pentax, none with Minox, etc.

Zeiss users are among the smaller minorities. I have met only one person using a Zeiss Victory, and have met four using the ClassiC, either 7x42 or 10x40. Not one retailer in New Mexico has Zeiss FL, nor does one have a ClassiC 7x42. On the other hand, at least two retailers have all of the EL models, and one has several SLCs. One retailer has all Leica models. For me to handle an FL I would have to drive at least 375 miles, IF any retailer in Denver has one.

Leica hosts annual "Leica Day" at photographic stores nationwide, featuring cameras and binoculars, and in New Mexico they have a booth annually at the Festival of the Cranes at the Bosque del Apache NWR. Swarovski has retail outlets in malls in many larger cities.

Zeiss has no such presence. As I stated in another thread, one retailer in the San Francisco Bay Area dropped Zeiss from her lineup because she found them to be unresponsive to her needs. She now handles only Swift and Swarovski, two companies whose customer service she considers exceptional. One retailer in New Mexico has not had Zeiss in stock in more than a year. When I asked about it, a staff member said that they "never hear from the sales rep."

At least in this part of the country, the only Zeiss FLs that will be bought will be by people who have learned about them by conducting their research on the Internet.

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I come from the old school of photolithography (offset printing) In the old days 15 years ago all the monster litho cameras had Zeiss lenses and they were supreme..The highend camera stores in my area sell Nikon,Olympus,Canon,Promaster and an assortment of toys.
Sam

Rich N said:

The USA site doesn't seem to know about the FL series.

Rich

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Yes, isn't this incredible? At first I couldn't even register my warranty on-line, because the FL series wasn't in the drop-down list on the registration page. They added the FLs after I complained. It all looks rather half-hatched and makes you wonder about their commitment to their "sports" products (binoculars & scopes).

Curtis Croulet said:

Yes, isn't this incredible? At first I couldn't even register my warranty on-line, because the FL series wasn't in the drop-down list on the registration page. They added the FLs after I complained. It all looks rather half-hatched and makes you wonder about their commitment to their "sports" products (binoculars & scopes).

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Yes they should have their registration list updated. But I think most optic manufacturer's do a very poor job of getting new product info on their sites. Actually I think most of the sites really suck; usually quite complicated and very slow to download.

I suspect Zeiss USA is feeling the meltdown of their main consumer product line: photographic lenses. Hasselblad and Contax cameras supported a broad range of fine optics, all provided by Carl Zeiss. Thanks to the digital revolution, sales of those premium lenses are going to Canon and Nikon. Hasselblad is bankrupt, Kyocera (maker for the Contax brand) is retrenched.

The new pusher of CZ glass is Sony and their digital P&S. Service is handled by Sony, not Zeiss USA. Can sport optics make up the revenue shortfall? I doubt it.

As has happened with US sales offices for Kyocera and Leica, Zeiss must be under pressure to reduce their staff. That can create a service quality problem. From this forum, Swaro sounds like a different case: part of their US expansion?

Bill Atwood said:

Zeiss marketing may not get to the mom & pop optics shops like they should, but I hardly think they will only pick up sales through web surfing. The FLs have been advertised in the birding mags for the last 2-3 months.

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You are probably right, and I overstated that. There is a lot to learn by exploring the Internet, but birding mags do provide a lot of advertising. Maybe advertising is what helped the EL become so popular. Swarovski's ads have been sophisticated and eye-catching, and based on appearance alone, the EL looks like a huge advance over the competition. One might even assume that Swarovski planned integrated product development and marketing, specifically targeting birders. Even their packaging lends an impression of sophistication. Leica has similarly strong marketing, but it is not as slick as Swarovski's. Everybody else's seems fairly lame by comparison.

Bill Atwood said:

; the Victory, which was a disaster;
I started birding about 11 years ago and it seems that birding in the US itself sort of took off then, or maybe shortly thereafter. About that time Leica had bought Leitz .

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Bill,
Leica never had to buy Leitz, the only thing that happened was a name change. As for the Victory, it may not have sold well, but I don't think you could call it a disaster. And birding has been around - even in the US - long before you started. I think that's just a matter of perception.

Robert

Actually, E. Leitz GmbH broke apart in 1988, with the camera, lenses and sports optics operations subsumed by a new entity called Leica Camera GmbH. That entity became a public company in the early 90's, and is now known as Leica Camera AG. Production moved (albeit not very far) from Wetzlar to Solms.

I may be a voice crying in the wilderness on this one, but I own and much enjoy my Zeiss 8 x 40 Victory I. To me, the easy weight and total reliability make up for its supposed optical deficiencies, i.e., it's sharp enough (and I have gotten used to the strap attachments and tire rubber armor).

Maybe Leica-Leitz was just a name change, but I do seem to recall there was some consternation about it among some photographers. To me that implied more than just a name change.

And I know birding has been around awhile, but I think there's little doubt it has become much more popular in the US within the last few years. I hear this from folks who have birded since the 60's. I've also seen a substantial increase in advertising for optics, lodging, tour outfits, clothing etc. And isn't there a much larger number of bin models aimed at birders these days?

Sometimes I wish it was less popular.

My characterization of the Victory as a disaster (in the US anyway) is based on the number I have seen around the necks of birders. I'm not sure I have even seen one. I think their switch of the strap attachment lugs and possible baffling alteration is an indication they weren't doing well at all. I'm sure there are some out there, but unless there is a Victory cult or 2 elsewhere in the US, I stand by my term of "disaster".

Bill Atwood: Enthusiasts of whatever interest always fret when there's a corporate change concerning their favorite products. In the case of Leitz/Leica, it appears to me that Leica's fabled cameras and lenses are still available, and the binoculars and scopes seem to be upholding the tradition. I've heard some grumbles about QA problems with the cameras, but I don't know if that's a recent problem or just bad luck.

chartwell99: Has the "rubber tire" smell decreased at all while you've owned the bins? My FL had a rubbery smell fresh out of the box, but it's not noticeable now unless you put your nose right on the bins.