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Help required. Neighbour has shot Collared Dove in my garden. (2 Viewers)

So i am NOT wrong on that count, you are!

As my info comes direct from our local police then I think I'll make my own mind up about that.

...They catch the culprits, who state they did not know they were not allowed to shoot in the wood, okay that may be a blag to the cops, but can you prove it??

Can I prove what? That they didn't know they weren't allowed? That would be irrelevant as ignorance is not a defence to any crime. The Nature Reserve sign they were parked next to should have given them a bit of a clue anyway. Or, can I prove that the police simply let them go, with no follow-up, after returning their weapons? Yes.

Were they deliberately shooting at Families in the vicinity? I'd say a helicopter and officers on the ground attending WAS taking the incident seriously, would you?

Silly me. I'd always been under the impression that discharging firearms in a public place was illegal, and that you don't actually need to be shooting at members of the public. Taking it seriously would have involved at the very least confiscating and destroying the weapons (I know that other police officers in this area have done this in similar instances). These guys were shooting, illegally, in a Nature Reserve where there were several families and they suffered nothing other than being inconvenienced for 5 minutes by the appearance of the helicopter and a couple of officers.

cheers
martin
 
Bristolbirder,
Very tough decision, but easier to accept knowing you carefully weighed out all the options to arrive where you did. Your are to be commended for your efforts to salvage one of the tiniest of blessings that God grants us. I am certain that there will be one or two more of the softest leaves within your heavenly nest when your time comes. Here's to not being in a hurry to enjoy them.
Bski from the States
 
...oh yeah, and an "attaboy" to Jos Stratford. That is a great story. I forwarded the link to my wife to enjoy; I'll bet she even cries.
 
As my info comes direct from our local police then I think I'll make my own mind up about that.



Can I prove what? That they didn't know they weren't allowed? That would be irrelevant as ignorance is not a defence to any crime. The Nature Reserve sign they were parked next to should have given them a bit of a clue anyway. Or, can I prove that the police simply let them go, with no follow-up, after returning their weapons? Yes.



Silly me. I'd always been under the impression that discharging firearms in a public place was illegal, and that you don't actually need to be shooting at members of the public. Taking it seriously would have involved at the very least confiscating and destroying the weapons (I know that other police officers in this area have done this in similar instances). These guys were shooting, illegally, in a Nature Reserve where there were several families and they suffered nothing other than being inconvenienced for 5 minutes by the appearance of the helicopter and a couple of officers.

cheers
martin

Okay Martin, I'm disappointed with myself for getting into this, as i said i wouldn't. I am a Police Officer and Wildlife Crimes Officer too. But, hey, you sound like you know better than me, so you carry on.:brains:
 
There's a lot of misunderstanding in this thread about the use of air rifles on land and in gardens in particular.

It is illegal to discharge a firearm in a garden if the missile(s) is /are likely to leave the curtilage (bounds) of the property.

It is illegal to discharge a firearm within 50 feet of the centre of a highway.

There is no protection and certainly no closed season for either Collared Doves or Wood Pigeons - they are on the list of birds which can be shot as vermin at any time of the year. The officers called to this incident would have been concerned that there were no offences disclosed with regard to any age or supervision requirements for air weapons for these kids. Beyond that that their sole concern would have been with safety issues and whether the pellet(s) left the curtilage of the garden. The officers can only proceed with what they can prove. The issue of whether the bird was shot in yours or their garden is simply your word against theirs, so they probably did all they could in the circumstances in issuing a stern warning. They cannot confiscate weapons unless there's clear evidence that an offence has been committed, they'd be abusing their authority if they did. Had they been able to prove this offence it would not have been a 'crime' it's a purely summary offence - i.e. one which which can only be dealt by a magistrates court, and not any higher. That's not to say I don't understand the legitimate concerns of the OP.

With regard to cruelty to animals, the law only recognizes two categories of animal to which cruelty laws apply.

Domestic Animals

Cats Dogs, Cattle Sheep etc... fairly straightforward.

Captive Animals

There is no general cruelty law covering wild animals, unless they have been reduced into captivity 'maimed, pinioned or subjected to some other contrivance' to prevent their escape. It's important to understand that you have to prove the cruelty aspect - killing it isn't cruelty, and you can't murder a wild animal.

Whilst there's no general cruelty law governing wild animals there are many laws covering specific species such as The Badgers Act, which provides substantial punishment for offenders, and quite rightly so. Hare Coursing is another activity governed by specific legislation and there are many others. Wild birds (not on the vermin list) are extensively protected by legislation, as are their nests and eggs.

The difficulty with cruelty offences is always proving the cruelty - killing the animal is not cruelty in itself. If someone shoots your pet dog dead for pooing on their garden, and it cannot be proved that the animal suffered in any way, then the charge would be 'Criminal damage to one dog the property of XXXX to the value of XXX' and I've prepared that charge a few times. ;)
 
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"There is no protection and certainly no closed season for either Collared Doves or Wood Pigeons - they are on the list of birds which can be shot as vermin at any time of the year. "

Surely a license is required though?

Steve
 
"There is no protection and certainly no closed season for either Collared Doves or Wood Pigeons - they are on the list of birds which can be shot as vermin at any time of the year. "

Surely a license is required though?

Steve

Sadly, no license is required tp possess air weapons Steve. There's a minimum age for possession, under which they must be supervised by a person over 21. I assume though you mean a license to shoot vermin? Again, none is required or exists, and no control other than the necessary authority to shoot on land being obtained. Farmland is the obvious example, where the permission of the farmer would be needed, but a back garden is 'land' for this purpose and the occupants authorise themselves. (in the same way a farmer would on his own land)

There's nothing wrong with shooting air weapons in a garden environment, provided it's done responsibly and safely, but we all know that's often far from the case!

The vermin list is subject to change from time to time, due to the monitoring of species numbers etc., and fairly recently Starlings and Sparrows have been removed from the list and Canada Geese added to it.

Shooting Game species, pheasants, etc and wildfowl is a different matter - a Game License (license to shoot game) is required and is renewable annually. Obviously, the Open and Closed seasons on these species must be strictly observed and even in the Open Season, it is illegal to kill or pursue game on Sundays, Christmas Day or Good Friday.
 
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Hi Steve

As people have mentioned here it is getting the proof/facts etc... to show that the shooting occured.

Just a thought here. Would installing a CCTV camera within the boundaries of your property help here. I know that you can buy them at a reasonable price, and they come in all sizes. Some are very small and can be hidden so no-one but only you will know that they are being filmed. This would be useful if they where to invade your privacy again. The only thing with CCTV's is not pointing them towards peoples driveways so that is one area you have to watch.

To me it sounds like as long as your neighbours own this gun, there may be other issues attached (as you say this is not the first time this has happened).

Maybe another avenue for you to consider that may helps issues.

Having a filmed copy of any dirty deed being done is the way forward for you here for peace of mind more than anything.

Regards
Kathy
 
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Sadly, no license is required tp possess air weapons Steve. There's a minimum age for possession, under which they must be supervised by a person over 21. I assume though you mean a license to shoot vermin? Again, none is required or exists, and no control other than the necessary authority to shoot on land being obtained. Farmland is the obvious example, where the permission of the farmer would be needed, but a back garden is 'land' for this purpose and the occupants authorise themselves. (in the same way a farmer would on his own land)

There's nothing wrong with shooting air weapons in a garden environment, provided it's done responsibly and safely, but we all know that's often far from the case!

The vermin list is subject to change from time to time, due to the monitoring of species numbers etc., and fairly recently Starlings and Sparrows have been removed from the list and Canada Geese added to it.

Shooting Game species, pheasants, etc and wildfowl is a different matter - a Game License (license to shoot game) is required and is renewable annually. Obviously, the Open and Closed seasons on these species must be strictly observed and even in the Open Season, it is illegal to kill or pursue game on Sundays, Christmas Day or Good Friday.


You're wrong on a technicality. The wording of the general licence (which in effect gives an exemtpion to the Wildlife and countryside act, which gives protection to all wild birds) says:

Permits authorised persons to kill or take certain birds, or to take, damage or destroy their nests; or to take or destroy their eggs, for the purposes of: (i) preventing the spread of disease; and (ii) preventing serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, fisheries or inland waters. The species on the licence are: Common name Scientific name
Canada Goose Branta canadensis
Crow Corvus corone
Dove, Collared Streptopelia decaocto
Gull, Great Black-backed Larus marinus
Gull, Lesser Black-backed Larus fuscus
Gull, Herring Larus argentatus
Jackdaw Corvus monedula
Jay Garrulus glandarius
Magpie Pica pica
Pigeon, Feral Columba livia
Rook Corvus frugilegus
Woodpigeon Columba palumbus

Permits authorised persons to kill or take certain birds, including the taking, damaging or destruction of their nests or the taking or destruction of their eggs for the purposes of conserving wild birds. The species on the licence are: (same as above)

Permits authorised persons to kill or take certain birds, including the taking, damaging or destruction of their nests or the taking or destruction of their eggs for the purposes of preserving public health or public safety. The species on the licence are: (same as above).

So, technically, you have to have a reason to kill them. there is no such thing as 'vermin' in law, and no open season on any bird species. So Collared Doves are actually protected, unless you can prove one of the above conditions. In effect this is hard;y ever enforced, despite a test case by the RSPCA which successfully prosecuted someone for shooting starlings in their garden (back when they were on the list) without a valid reason. And despite this exemtion in the licence:

"This licence can only be relied on in circumstances where the authorised person is satisfied that appropriate
non-lethal methods of control such as scaring are either ineffective or impracticable."

and also:

"This licence authorises acts which would otherwise
be an offence under the Wildlife and Countryside
Act 1981. Failure to act within the purposes of this
licence as set out in paragraph 1 or failure to comply
with the terms and conditions set out in paragraphs
3 to 10 may lead to an offence against that Act. The
maximum penalty available for an offence under Part
I of the Act is a fine of £5000 and/or a six month
custodial sentence."

Again, the fact that the dove was seen to be shot in their garden, and they were in possession of it, is more than 'your word against theirs' That's called evidence and eye-witness account. The pellet clearly left the garden. The dove was clearly shot without reason in disregard of the General Licence. Those facts are unavoidable. So that's an offence under firearms laws and wildlife laws. And the police wonder why public confidence in them is not what it should be? If that is your first and only experience of policing, then it doesn't give a good impression, does it? Not only has this happened at least twice, but the police left these children with the means to do it again! I think that's shocking. Just what else aren't they enforcing?
 
You're wrong on a technicality. The wording of the general licence (which in effect gives an exemtpion to the Wildlife and countryside act, which gives protection to all wild birds) says:

Permits authorised persons to kill or take certain birds, or to take, damage or destroy their nests; or to take or destroy their eggs, for the purposes of: (i) preventing the spread of disease; and (ii) preventing serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, fisheries or inland waters. The species on the licence are: Common name Scientific name
Canada Goose Branta canadensis
Crow Corvus corone
Dove, Collared Streptopelia decaocto
Gull, Great Black-backed Larus marinus
Gull, Lesser Black-backed Larus fuscus
Gull, Herring Larus argentatus
Jackdaw Corvus monedula
Jay Garrulus glandarius
Magpie Pica pica
Pigeon, Feral Columba livia
Rook Corvus frugilegus
Woodpigeon Columba palumbus

Permits authorised persons to kill or take certain birds, including the taking, damaging or destruction of their nests or the taking or destruction of their eggs for the purposes of conserving wild birds. The species on the licence are: (same as above)

Permits authorised persons to kill or take certain birds, including the taking, damaging or destruction of their nests or the taking or destruction of their eggs for the purposes of preserving public health or public safety. The species on the licence are: (same as above).

So, technically, you have to have a reason to kill them. there is no such thing as 'vermin' in law, and no open season on any bird species. So Collared Doves are actually protected, unless you can prove one of the above conditions. In effect this is hard;y ever enforced, despite a test case by the RSPCA which successfully prosecuted someone for shooting starlings in their garden (back when they were on the list) without a valid reason. And despite this exemtion in the licence:

"This licence can only be relied on in circumstances where the authorised person is satisfied that appropriate
non-lethal methods of control such as scaring are either ineffective or impracticable."

and also:

"This licence authorises acts which would otherwise
be an offence under the Wildlife and Countryside
Act 1981. Failure to act within the purposes of this
licence as set out in paragraph 1 or failure to comply
with the terms and conditions set out in paragraphs
3 to 10 may lead to an offence against that Act. The
maximum penalty available for an offence under Part
I of the Act is a fine of £5000 and/or a six month
custodial sentence."

Again, the fact that the dove was seen to be shot in their garden, and they were in possession of it, is more than 'your word against theirs' That's called evidence and eye-witness account. The pellet clearly left the garden. The dove was clearly shot without reason in disregard of the General Licence. Those facts are unavoidable. So that's an offence under firearms laws and wildlife laws. And the police wonder why public confidence in them is not what it should be? If that is your first and only experience of policing, then it doesn't give a good impression, does it? Not only has this happened at least twice, but the police left these children with the means to do it again! I think that's shocking. Just what else aren't they enforcing?

Yawn!! The last line is a real beauty! Its one I'll remember next time I'm in the process of telling someone their 12yr old has just been killed, or i'm arresting a violent male whos just beat his wife half to death. Whats up Peocile, have you just had a parking ticket or something? Or are you just so narrow minded to think the police only target 'innocent motorists'.
 

Good grief! Hope that's not a typical reaction of the police when someone shows concern over what many people might see as a lack of action over a firearms incident?

I'd certainly try to remember Poecile's words if you ever have to tell someone their 12 year old has just been killed by someone mis-using an air rifle - especially if that someone had been 'warned' twice before by the police . . .

Jonathan
 
Yawn!! The last line is a real beauty! Its one I'll remember next time I'm in the process of telling someone their 12yr old has just been killed, or i'm arresting a violent male whos just beat his wife half to death. Whats up Peocile, have you just had a parking ticket or something? Or are you just so narrow minded to think the police only target 'innocent motorists'.

Hey, look around. You're a public servant. Judging by this thread, the public aren't too impressed with the service they're getting on this issue. And do you think you could have maybe missed a cliche in that post? No, probably not. Just remember who pays your wages, mate - the people who have just read your yawn. And remember whose support you'll be wanting for your current pay dispute and right-to-strike action.
 
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as conorbirda and the rest of britains police force pay tax on they're wages and just about everything that they buy i can only assume that they actually pay their own wages.
 
certainly not. that goes towards the cost of the 43 forms that they have to fill out for every arrest made..

no, that's paid for by the tax the police pay themselves ;)

I wonder if the 43 forms to fill out has anything to do with little or no action being taken against these gun-toting law-breakers? Almost like they didn't fancy the paperwork...
 
Hey, look around. You're a public servant. Judging by this thread, the public aren't too impressed with the service they're getting on this issue. And do you think you could have maybe missed a cliche in that post? No, probably not. Just remember who pays your wages, mate - the people who have just read your yawn. And remember whose support you'll be wanting for your current pay dispute and right-to-strike action.

The YAWN was a 'oh no not another dig at the police' yawn, not the way it has been constrewed.
You actually DONT pay my wages. The taxes you pay towards your LOCAL police force do not go towards paying our wages.I am also a tax payer. If i had a pound for everytime someone said "i pay your wages" i would be a lot better off.
I think you mean Civil Servant, not public servant.
As for judging on this thread, the person who started this thread said he was happy with the police response. It seems to be you Peocile that is driving this thread along and attempting to whip up the 'All police are rubbish and dont do there job properly' brigade.
As for the support for the wages. Remember who's support you might need if we do go out on strike!
Im sorry that this thread about a Shot collared Dove has turned into a police bashing opportunity for some. I wont be taking any further part in it.

Merry Christmas!!
 
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