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Lesser Scaup - Pennington, Gtr Mcr, UK (1 Viewer)

Rob Smallwood

Well-known member
Lesser Scaup - Pennington, Gtr Mcr, UK - or is it?

Had great views of this new arrival at Pennington yesterday, it is fully winged, un-ringed and structurally pretty good, but I have a nagging doubt over the extent of the white in the outer wing - see below.


Could the very bright sun be making the outer wing look whiter than it really is, or is there cause for concern?
 
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Rob Smallwood said:
Had great views of this new arrival at Pennington yesterday, it is fully winged, un-ringed and structurally pretty good, but I have a nagging doubt over the extent of the white in the outer wing - see below.


Could the very bright sun be making the outer wing look whiter than it really is, or is there cause for concern?


Rob,

Although I didn't manage to see the birds upperwing pattern on Saturday the finder and at least one other reliable birder saw it well (while I was there but not looking a it!) and felt it spot on for Lesser Scaup.

When the bird was found the finder mentioned to me that the mantle looked almost pure white such was the effect of the strong sunlight, yet the good views afforded since then shows the mantle patternation to be classic. I'm assuming it is possibly the same effect with your photos but I'll look forward to seeing them anyway, given that this is the birds 4th year returning to Greater Manchester and appears to have paired with a female tufted, there are no doubt lots of confusing hybrids out there yet!

Cheers,

Ian
 
I've emailed you the photo in question.

Structure and mantle etc all very good, nail marking perhaps a bit wide tipped but I know they can be variable - it's just that outer wing - but I'm hoping that it is just a trick of the light.
 
Rob Smallwood said:
I've emailed you the photo in question.

Structure and mantle etc all very good, nail marking perhaps a bit wide tipped but I know they can be variable - it's just that outer wing - but I'm hoping that it is just a trick of the light.

Hopefully I've attached Rob's photo, which if correct would display an upperwing pattern that is inconsistent with Lesser Scaup, with the white extending quite far onto the primaries (p5/6?).

During my observations I too felt the nail slightly too 'spread' across the bill tip at times, then under slightly better viewing conditions it looked fine and appeared to be another lighting effect rather than a consistent feature. I'm not entirely sure that I'd be happy with anything other than a lovely little black nail on the bill either as I don't think they should be that variable. Perhaps the fact that it is entering eclipse plumage (most obvious on the foreneck currently) and the rapid transition that entails may have some bearing.

If anyone manages any other upperwing shots (or close up bill tips) I for one would be very keen to see them. Other than that I'll get down again tommorrow and hang around until it flaps!

Ian
 

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Based solely on this one shot, I too would be very doubtful. I don't think even strong sun could create the impression of so much white on the primaries. SeeTHIS shot of a flock of Lesser Scaup taking off in what appears to be strong sun to see what I mean.
 
Joern Lehmhus said:
Me also--more pics needed , I would say....

No more pics yet I'm afraid, and personally I'm very cautious of judging colour from photos especially in the extremely strong sunlight we're experiencing at the moment. That said, after a very long time carefully assessing the bird in the field (or rather, on the flash!) this morning, this is what I found:

Although the bird frustratingly refused to wing flap or stretch sufficiently to be absolutely positive on the wing bar and the distribution of white within it, on two very brief flaps (from poor angles) it did appear that strong white extended from the secondary wing bar to approximately P5 on the primaries and thus outside the expected pattern for Lesser Scaup. I can't explain why good observers have claimed a Lesser pattern originally and am holding out for better views for myself before I'm certain on this one.

The black on the nail can be very difficult to assess; sometimes appearing to spread slightly, but after good close views it appears the black is indeed restricted to the nail only. The bill shape and colouration is consistent with Lesser Scaup.

The head shape is perhaps rather un-Lesser Scaup like, lacking the peaked crown and small 'bump' on the rear crown so distinctive in Lesser Scaup. Instead it appears consistently rather angular and square shaped but not unlike some Lesser Scaups, although I would expect it to show some of the 'expected shape' sometime.

The bill often appeared very large for the head, although good in shape for Lesser Scaup and the whole appearance of the head and neck was perhaps too bulky for Lesser Scaup and not quite as 'delicate' as expected. On reference to photos on the internet it seems the relation of bill to head size in Lesser Scaup (and other aythya probably) is variable.

The sides of the head displayed a noticeable greenish sheen which seemed consistent most of the time, with a slight purple sheen appearing much less obvious and more prominent only from certain angles.

The vermiculations on the fore scapulars appeared very faint, with the same patterning on the rear scaps and mantle broader, darker and more obvious. Although the feathers appeared rather worn this might not be the expected pattern for Lesser Scaup but I have seen similar on birds in the states and on some photos on the 'net so am slightly cautious of placing too much emphasis on this.

On a rear view in direct comparrison to Tufted Duck in the same angle, the bird was considerably broader in body size (flank to flank) than Tufted Duck by approximately 30-40%. I cannot recall noticing this much size difference on Lesser Scaup before and would appreciate comment on this feature from those with a confirmed view. Otherwise, it's overall size (length of body/neck/head) appears pretty much similar to a drake Tufted.

It is currently being 'spouted' as a probable hybrid (including by the finder) but I find this difficult to swallow. Hybrid with what? Any Tufted Duck parentage would be expected to show more finely (and greyer/darker looking) back, some trace of a 'tuft' and a more extensive black nail atleast. Pochard would show a completely different suite of characters (bill, back, head shape, orange eye) and what of Greater X Lesser Scaup (which was mentioned to me today), this hybrid is unknown in the states and what chances of it here? If it wasn't for the squarish head and overall size (but what of overlap?) it appears to fit Greater Scaup quite nicely. Vermiculations, wing bar, head gloss, broad width of body, large bill size (subjective that though!) and although our knowledge of Lesser Scaups beginning the process of eclipse is poor I'm not sure it would account for most of these abnormalities.

An interesting bird and thanks to Rob for starting the concerns with his upperwing shot, I wonder the outcome had it only stayed briefly! Anyway, back tommorrow for another upperwing 'stakeout'!

Ian
 
Here are a couple of pics I took this morning, unfortunately still without a digiscoping adaptor for my new Swarovski (at £106 will have to wait a little longer!), so they're not the best. But anyway.....................

Ian
 
Ian Mckerchar said:
Here are a couple of pics I took this morning, unfortunately still without a digiscoping adaptor for my new Swarovski (at £106 will have to wait a little longer!), so they're not the best. But anyway.....................

Ian

Hmmmm, not very good pics! Try again, sorry.............

Ian
 

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well the GS impression I had from the Surfbirds pic has lessened a good deal with these two new pics, but still something doesn't 'feel' right for pure LS (although I've not seen the bird in the field for gizz and comparative purposes and only seen four pics) ~ the intial flight shot aside (and I find the extent of white in the wing a bit excessive for LS, though that's not to say that one pic can be trusted), the mantle is very pale (I note it's meant to appear spot-on in life) with the fore-vermiculations hardly discernable (the flight shot may be a better representation of the true mantle paleness (?)), the bill is a little more GS than LS to my eye though but accept individual variation to a point ... won't comment on head shape as though it doesn't appear 'classic' LS there are trillions of pics which show LS with rounded and squared off looking head profiles ... be keen on knowing also why some who've seen it in the field think it's a hybrid, more flight pics and maybe a pics alongside TD ... a bit non-commital at the mo ... I'm gobsmacked that GS and LS haven't been known to hybridise in the states (!), not sure about collections over here, worth bearing in mind the backcross or trigen possibilty, if indeed it is a hybrid ..

just for structural comparison >

http://www.utahbirds.org/featarts/Scaup.htm
 
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Tufted x Pochard hybrid

I saw a Tufted x Poch hybrid at Westport Lake, Staffs last October. Cracking bird, asleep but it looked exactly like a Tufted except the top of it was pale. I thought it was bad light at first, but i then convinced myself it was white. LScaup never entered my mind as it was structurally identical to a Tufted. Just type in Tufted x Pochard hybrid in google and there are some pics. Tufted genes must be stronger than Poch genes as they are most un-Poch like.
PS. On Birdguides, Pennington bird now considered a GScaup

Cheers, Nick Smith
 
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