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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Is the FL old hat? (1 Viewer)

ronh

Well-known member
During a recent day of good birding at Bosque del Apache NWR, I traded my 8x42 FL for my wife's 8.5x42 Swarovision for a little over an hour. What follows are purely subjective impressions, but from real field use looking at birds fast and hard, no time to fool around, hopefully sorting out what matters.

The SV is nice to wrap fingers around, but feels hard, sort of bricklike, and heavy compared to the polycarbonate Zeiss. The outward-bulging barrels of the FL provide more thumb room underneath than you'd expect, but it still requires a more deliberate grip than the SV which can be grabbed almost any old way.

The finely textured surface on the SV felt sticky in the heat, and aggressively grippy. The FL is softer and smooth, feeling nicer to me but easier to drop I suppose.

The eyecups on the SV adjust oddly, although the mechanism is mechanically very fine. With a steady clockwise rotation, they go down a ways, then up a little, then down some more, etc. I can't really tell what's going on, as the detents are not easily felt. The FL just goes down clockwise, up counterclockwise, simple.

The focus knob on the SV is a little harder to turn and less silky, and takes a lot of cranking to get to its minimum vs the FL's zippy 2 strokes to 6 feet.

Much discussion has appeared here about the Zeiss's off axis blur and the SV's excellent outfield correction. I noticed neither. Trying briefly to appreciate the edge of the SV, I experienced vignetting unless I repositioned my eyes.

Birds were zooming through the reeds, and there was much panning. The SV's rolling ball effect was annoying at first, but after a few minutes I began to get used to it and think I could live with that easily. I am used to pincushion too.

Without hurting my eyes trying to analyze why, there was something about the FLs view that I preferred. It may be brighter, although the two were close. The SV did give the impression of deeper colors. I just felt I could see things a little easier through the FL.

I was initially smitten with the SV, but have changed my opinion a little after this real-birding test. I don't think any less of it, but more highly of the FL than on that first comparison. I am not convinced that the aging FL isn't still right there with the newer models. (I have not used the EDG, nor the Leica HD, but have used the BR which most reviewers find identical.) In the field it performs as well as or better than anything else I have used. In particular, its centerfield view is hard to beat.
Ron
 
Good review Ron, kudos to ziess given that the fl has been around for 7 years now. My 2 cents is the swaro wins the edg sharpness, flat field, rubber feel and comfort. Zeiss wins on preserving color, smoother and faster focus, bright image and center sharpness. The hd ziess improved edge sharpness so i cant wait to see the ht. Biggest beef with zeiss fl is the design, they are not balanced for me and they don't feel great in my hands. The hd was a great improvement in this respect.
 
During a recent day of good birding at Bosque del Apache NWR, I traded my 8x42 FL for my wife's 8.5x42 Swarovision for a little over an hour. What follows are purely subjective impressions, but from real field use looking at birds fast and hard, no time to fool around, hopefully sorting out what matters.

The SV is nice to wrap fingers around, but feels hard, sort of bricklike, and heavy compared to the polycarbonate Zeiss. The outward-bulging barrels of the FL provide more thumb room underneath than you'd expect, but it still requires a more deliberate grip than the SV which can be grabbed almost any old way.

The finely textured surface on the SV felt sticky in the heat, and aggressively grippy. The FL is softer and smooth, feeling nicer to me but easier to drop I suppose.

The eyecups on the SV adjust oddly, although the mechanism is mechanically very fine. With a steady clockwise rotation, they go down a ways, then up a little, then down some more, etc. I can't really tell what's going on, as the detents are not easily felt. The FL just goes down clockwise, up counterclockwise, simple.

The focus knob on the SV is a little harder to turn and less silky, and takes a lot of cranking to get to its minimum vs the FL's zippy 2 strokes to 6 feet.

Much discussion has appeared here about the Zeiss's off axis blur and the SV's excellent outfield correction. I noticed neither. Trying briefly to appreciate the edge of the SV, I experienced vignetting unless I repositioned my eyes.

Birds were zooming through the reeds, and there was much panning. The SV's rolling ball effect was annoying at first, but after a few minutes I began to get used to it and think I could live with that easily. I am used to pincushion too.

Without hurting my eyes trying to analyze why, there was something about the FLs view that I preferred. It may be brighter, although the two were close. The SV did give the impression of deeper colors. I just felt I could see things a little easier through the FL.

I was initially smitten with the SV, but have changed my opinion a little after this real-birding test. I don't think any less of it, but more highly of the FL than on that first comparison. I am not convinced that the aging FL isn't still right there with the newer models. (I have not used the EDG, nor the Leica HD, but have used the BR which most reviewers find identical.) In the field it performs as well as or better than anything else I have used. In particular, its centerfield view is hard to beat.
Ron

Ron,

You flip-flopper! You were for it before you were against it. :)

Or perhaps you are just "pimping up" the FLs so you can sell them on eBay for a nice price, like another notorious flip-flopper we know, in preparation for buying "this year's model".

The SV EL has field flatteners and the FL doesn't, so regardless if you don't see the astigmatism at the edge, the SV EL is technically sharper to the edge - but if the EL's edges vignette if you don't reposition your eyes, then it doesn't matter much anyway.

Plus it works out better this way, if you had liked your wife's bins better, it could have led to martial discord. And the next thing you know the two lawyers are arguing over joint custody vs. full custody of the SV EL (hey, they don't care, they get their 40% either way).

That flip-flop saved you quite a bit of money!

As to the FL's "centerfield is hard to beat" comment, from Zeiss's explanation (or should I say rationalization) of why the FL's "zone of critical sharpness" is sharper but only to about 60% out and why the edges are fuzzy (to those who see fuzzy edges, that is), if they make the HT sharper to the edge like the HD, they will have some 'splainin' to do.

You're probably right about the FL being "right there" with the latest and greatest, but Zeiss had to come up with something new or they would look like they were falling behind.

So keep the FL and trade the wife in for a newer model. :)

Baroque del Apache
 
That's something I always wondered about the SV, if you really could let your eyes wander to the edges without black-outs. If you can't, I don't really see the point. I need to try for myself.

About the FL, just used it this morning.......crisp March day, everything just looked glorious, super-sharp, bright, true colours. As Brock would know, I have little problem with the edge performance of the FL. Truth be known, and as sacriligious as this may be, I find the edges to be nearly as good as my 7 x 42 BGAT/P. From 8 o' clock to 4 o' clock the edges are just fine. The only zone they could really fix is 4 to 8, where it is noticable [but not distracting] if you are looking more than a few hundred metres. Even then, some of this is eye-position. I can improve this view by using reverse MOCLET technique.

Anyway, the FL still works for me and I have no interest in an HT / EDG or SV yet.
 
"I just felt I could see things a little easier through the FL."
Without commenting on the optical qualities either of the Zeiss FL or the Swarovski Swarovision, one might observe that you could see things a little easier through the FL because your eyes are used to the view. In any case, if such highly priced binoculars as the Nikon EDGs, Swarovisions and Zeiss FL needed "upgrading" every five years or so, they could not be as good as they are made out to be.
Best wishes,
Chhayanat
 
....
Anyway, the FL still works for me and I have no interest in an HT / EDG or SV yet.

"Yet" being the key operating word. :)

As many experts have attested, the state of sports optics is such right now that further upgrades amount to putting the icing on the cake or giving people alternatives such as an open bridge or closed bridge or field flatteners or Bluetooth, etc.

After a couple breakthroughs and many incremental improvements over the past two decades, roofs have finally caught up to porros.

If the Zeiss HT really has 95% light transmission coming through the EPs, where is there left to go? Well, 96%, 97%, 98%, but is anybody going to notice? Will it be worth the extra money? What if they go too far and make the light transmission 102% like the Docter 8x56 Nobilem, and it starts sucking the energy out of your corpuscles? Will they include a bottle of Geritol with each bin?

People think I have laugh lines around my eyes, but they are actually wince marks from thinking about things like that and stuff like the fact that the expansion of the universe is continuing to speed up, what if it goes so fast that there's a mass outbreak of whiplash? Who's going to deliver my New York Times?

Woody
 
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James,
In the bright conditions, my eye pupils must have been closed down pretty tight. So, when I tried to look at the edge, as my eyes moved out of the bundle of rays, there wouldn't have been much in the way of overlap. In dimmer conditions, this vignetting would be less noticeable, and the edge of the SV might be appreciated.

I know what you mean about the center of sharpness and eye position. I experience that at night when I'm looking at double stars and trying to get the very sharpest view I can. It is easy to get the eyes off center a little and not notice it. It happens to me with all binoculars.
Ron

Brock,
Or, what if it runs into something else?
 
I've got a lot of porros and one roof (7x42 EDG) with field flattener lenses that I normally use for astronomy but for birding/hunting the FL is still one of the very best roofs. If I use it at night under the stars I find its edge performance distracting because the fuzzy stars at the edge of the fov are so obvious yet for daytime birding/hunting I don't find the FL's outer fov problematic at all.

Whatever I happen to be viewing in the daytime it won't have the huge difference in lighting contrast that you get at night and when using a binocular for terrestrial use I instinctively place the subject in the center in the fov. On the few occasions I've used my FL at night it has been for splitting doubles and for this it is as good or better than any of my 8x binoculars, the FL's on axis performance is superb. I also like the poly carbonate housing of the FL because in very cold weather the FL is one of the "warmest" binoculars available. In bitter cold all metal binoculars (even the rubber armored ones to a certain extent) act like a heat sink sucking the warmth from your hand/fingers unlike the FL.

Steve
 
I think the main improvements have been in coatings.
I have an EL from 2000 and have brought an EL SV. The colour and the contrast are much better. The difference from a 2009 EL may have been much smaller, as I believe Swarovski regularly update their coatings.
Edge sharpness is not all that important, but it sure is nice when you have a group of birds like 3 herons and they are all in focus together and you don't have to shift fro one bird to another.
 
Edge sharpness is not all that important, but it sure is nice when you have a group of birds like 3 herons and they are all in focus together and you don't have to shift fro one bird to another.

Indeed. For me, that is important.;)
 
I think the main improvements have been in coatings.
I have an EL from 2000 and have brought an EL SV. The colour and the contrast are much better. The difference from a 2009 EL may have been much smaller, as I believe Swarovski regularly update their coatings.
Edge sharpness is not all that important, but it sure is nice when you have a group of birds like 3 herons and they are all in focus together and you don't have to shift fro one bird to another.

Having compared a 2009 SLC to a 2001 EL, I found the difference in coatings quite noticeable. The color, contrast, and apparent brightness in the 2009 model was much improved, and it was more color neutral than the older EL.

A noticeable difference can also be seen in the SE series. A comparison btwn a 501 8x32 SE (circa 1998) and a 550 8x32 SE (2006+) or a 002 10x42 SE (1997?) and a 050 10x42 SE (2006+) reveals the newer models to have greater contrast and apparent brightness.

Colors are the same on the old and new. Nikon didn't go "warmer" with the lead free SE, the way it did with the EII and particularly the HGL.

I agree, coatings are the name of the game. All the other doodads are icing on the cake.
 
During a recent day of good birding at Bosque del Apache NWR, I traded my 8x42 FL for my wife's 8.5x42 Swarovision for a little over an hour. What follows are purely subjective impressions, but from real field use looking at birds fast and hard, no time to fool around, hopefully sorting out what matters.

The SV is nice to wrap fingers around, but feels hard, sort of bricklike, and heavy compared to the polycarbonate Zeiss. The outward-bulging barrels of the FL provide more thumb room underneath than you'd expect, but it still requires a more deliberate grip than the SV which can be grabbed almost any old way.

The finely textured surface on the SV felt sticky in the heat, and aggressively grippy. The FL is softer and smooth, feeling nicer to me but easier to drop I suppose.

The eyecups on the SV adjust oddly, although the mechanism is mechanically very fine. With a steady clockwise rotation, they go down a ways, then up a little, then down some more, etc. I can't really tell what's going on, as the detents are not easily felt. The FL just goes down clockwise, up counterclockwise, simple.

The focus knob on the SV is a little harder to turn and less silky, and takes a lot of cranking to get to its minimum vs the FL's zippy 2 strokes to 6 feet.

Much discussion has appeared here about the Zeiss's off axis blur and the SV's excellent outfield correction. I noticed neither. Trying briefly to appreciate the edge of the SV, I experienced vignetting unless I repositioned my eyes.

Birds were zooming through the reeds, and there was much panning. The SV's rolling ball effect was annoying at first, but after a few minutes I began to get used to it and think I could live with that easily. I am used to pincushion too.

Without hurting my eyes trying to analyze why, there was something about the FLs view that I preferred. It may be brighter, although the two were close. The SV did give the impression of deeper colors. I just felt I could see things a little easier through the FL.

I was initially smitten with the SV, but have changed my opinion a little after this real-birding test. I don't think any less of it, but more highly of the FL than on that first comparison. I am not convinced that the aging FL isn't still right there with the newer models. (I have not used the EDG, nor the Leica HD, but have used the BR which most reviewers find identical.) In the field it performs as well as or better than anything else I have used. In particular, its centerfield view is hard to beat.
Ron

Exactly my feeling and the reason I sold my SV after using it against my FL for some time. The only binocular better than the FL is the EDG. The EDG is smoother in every way especially the focus, fits your hands better is better balanced and has better optics especially at the edge. That's why I sold my FL.
 
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There was a saying in my family that my paternal Grandma would be happy with "tuppence and an old hat". Well, I'm even easier pleased: you can keep the tuppence and I'll just take the old hat, if it's a Zeiss FL. It may not be absolutely perfect, but at my age I doubt that I'd notice if the image edge was fuzzy, since I'm a bit afraid I'm a bit frayed there myself...
 
Maybe in 20+ years time the Zeiss FL will be sought out and revered like a 7x42 BGAT T Dialyt Classic today, and the Nikon EDG ? I doubt it`ll be remembered !
 
Maybe in 20+ years time the Zeiss FL will be sought out and revered like a 7x42 BGAT T Dialyt Classic today, and the Nikon EDG ? I doubt it`ll be remembered !

If we are ever going to wean ourselves off oil (and our dependence on Arab countries), we will also have to wean ourselves off plastics. So the FL could become a "classic" in the days where plastic is no longer a common material.

"Oh, I just love that old plasticy feel," said Elroy Jetson, after winning a bid for a $10,000 Victory FL on eBay. "You just can't get anything like that from the replicator."

Then again, maybe not. Environmental analyst Christopher Flavin, author of "The Future of Synthetic Materials," insists that oil-based plastics aren't going anywhere just yet. He predicts that the next 20 years will see bioplastics absorb a mere 5 percent of the global plastic market.

Rather than disappear, an increasing amount of plastics will be recycled in the future. So that old FL that Zeiss finally refuses to repair in 20 years might end up being used in the Zeiss Victory 2032 model.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/can-we-replace-plastic.htm
 
Maybe in 20+ years time the Zeiss FL will be sought out and revered like a 7x42 BGAT T Dialyt Classic today, and the Nikon EDG ? I doubt it`ll be remembered !

I don't know about that! The SE and EII have been around a long time and people still remember them and the EDG has better optics than either.
 
I don't know about that! The SE and EII have been around a long time and people still remember them and the EDG has better optics than either.

Dennis

The EDG series offers some things lacking in Nikon's CF porros (EDG is fully waterproof, has twist up eyecups, etc.) ; however, the EDG is not better optically. Everyone knows your compulsion to beret any binocular you don't have in your inventory compared to your present heart throb but the EDG is not any better optically than the SE or EII series.

The EDG is one of the best alphas (it's my favorite among my three alphas) and it offers some of the alpha amenities mentioned above but it doesn't best the Nikon porros optically. I know you've owned Nikon porros in the past but you have a propensity for "forgetting" certain aspects of any binocular that might threaten your current favorite. I use my SE's and EII's on a very regular basis and they are the full equal of their alpha brother (EDG) in optical performance.

Steve
 
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