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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Is the FL old hat? (1 Viewer)

temmie said:
The FL was never the most favorite premium binocular of most here, but considering how long ago it was developed, I would already consider it a classic. The 7x42 FL is probably the easiest to use (focus) and most performant (FOV, light transmission) binocular for tropical birding, coincidentally the kind of birding I prefer to do most.
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What tropical areas do you bird in being from Belgium and what species have you seen? I agree that the Zeiss 7x42 FL would be great under canopies in the tropics. I am going to the Yucatan Pennisula and Belize in three weeks and I hope to see some birds I haven't seen before. I want to see one of these. It is a Keelbilled Toucan their national bird.
 

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[email protected] said:
You contradict yourself more than I do! Every time I read your review or opinion on a certain binocular you have CHANGED your mind. Your opinions are "Dust in the Wind".
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Dennis, I'm not trying to yank your chain here, but I seem to remember a post you made in the last year, which rather surprised me, in which you said you couldn't get along with a binocular if the top reviewers didn't recommend it as being the best, and that you needed their approbation in order to be satisfied with your fave bino. Not the attitude of a cool, calm and collected bino-aficionado, no?
I couldn't be bothered searching through threads, but maybe you remember the post yourself (possibly in response to something Brock asked you). With all due respect (and remember we're talking only about binoculars here, i.e. highly unimportant tools in the grand scheme of things, if there is any), but if you're given a tin of paint and a corner, you'll invariably paint yourself into the latter. C'mon Dennis, for the love of all jahooley, would you pick a bino and be happy with it, and don't criticise others for their opinions, to which they're entitled? Especially don't criticise others for changing their minds, as that would really involve a glass-house resident chucking projectiles at his neighbours' residences (and remember I'm still heartbroken that you bummed out on my Swarovisions;)).
 
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Sancho said:
Dennis, I'm not trying to yank your chain here, but I seem to remember a post you made in the last year, which rather surprised me, in which you said you couldn't get along with a binocular if the top reviewers didn't recommend it as being the best, and that you needed their approbation in order to be satisfied with your fave bino. Not the attitude of a cool, calm and collected bino-aficionado, no?
I couldn't be bothered searching through threads, but maybe you remember the post yourself (possibly in response to something Brock asked you). With all due respect (and remember we're talking only about binoculars here, i.e. highly unimportant tools in the grand scheme of things, if there is any), but if you're given a tin of paint and a corner, you'll invariably paint yourself into the latter. C'mon Dennis, for the love of all jahooley, would you pick a bino and be happy with it, and don't criticise others for their opinions, to which they're entitled? Especially don't criticise others for changing their minds, as that would really involve a glass-house resident chucking projectiles at his neighbours' residences (and remember I'm still heartbroken that you bummed out on my Swarovisions;)).
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I might like the new 8x32 SV's if they keep the rolling ball down and get their focuser straightened out.
 
[email protected] said:
You contradict yourself more than I do! Every time I read your review or opinion on a certain binocular you have CHANGED your mind. Your opinions are "Dust in the Wind".
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Still waiting for you to show me some/any posts where I contradicted myself. Also still waiting for you to show me the post where I recommended "subpar optics". I assume that any binocular other than your current choice is what you mean when you say "subpar optics".....correct???

I could show you plenty of your posts where you contradict yourself but I don't even have to go that far back, you even do it in this thread. In post #15 where you're responding to Ron's post about preferring the FL's view over the SV you said "Exactly my feeling and the reason I sold my SV after using it for some time. The only binocular better than the FL is the EDG."

You had changed your mind (imagine that) quite a bit in your post #51 "The Zeiss FL is an outdated binocular now compared to the EDG and SV. I have had them all and the Zeiss FL comes in a solid third place." In the latter quote the FL is "an outdated binocular compared to the EDG and SV" yet in the first quote you sold your SV to replace it with an "outdated" FL.


At least you have a shred of consistency in your continuing praise for your EDG which leads me to believe you're already in pimp mode in preparation for dumping your EDG on ebay. The new 8x32 SV's are going to be all the rage and by your own admission you have to own what is considered to the "latest and greatest".

Steve
 
[email protected] said:
It is a more pleasing view when the edges are sharp. I pick up birds moving across the field faster. I observe birds in flight alot especially Eagles and other Bird of Prey and I find the sharp edges helpful. If you look at alot of stationary single birds it wouldn't be as big of a deal but for flocks and groups of birds it is pretty useful.
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Ok, I haven't seen an EDG, but from my limited (don't own one) experience of the SV, the image is only flat when static. In theory, if I am looking down a forest ride, I might pick up something moving onto the ride in the near/middle distance more quickly with the flatter field. However, until you move the binocular to put the object closer to the centre of the field of view, that image at the edge of the field of view can be bent/distorted until it enters the main FOV area. If I am looking at sky or over water and seeing moving images enter/leave the FOV, then maybe it would not be noticeable, but in forest/woodland edges, I am doubtful about the advantage of the flat field. Do you find that?
 
[email protected] said:
What tropical areas do you bird in being from Belgium and what species have you seen? I agree that the Zeiss 7x42 FL would be great under canopies in the tropics. I am going to the Yucatan Pennisula and Belize in three weeks and I hope to see some birds I haven't seen before. I want to see one of these. It is a Keelbilled Toucan their national bird.
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Good luck with the birding in Belize and the Yucatan peninsula, a friend of mine is going there too in the beginning of May for birding (only Belize, 2 weeks).

I have birded in some evergreen (sub)tropical rain forests in Ecuador, Peru, Colombia, Ethiopia, India, Borneo and the Philippines the last 3 years. Going to S-Peru this summer. Still not considering any other binocular than the 7x42FL for this kind of birding.
The FL compensates for me being old and slow, while the old :girl: in tour groups with their Swarovisions (I always end up birding in the same places) miss most quick-moving birds with that dreadful slow focus.
 
I have the Zeiss Conquest 8x30 T as my portable binoculars and I have the Leica 7x42 BN's as my main ones. I have compared the Zeiss to the Nikon Ell 8x30 and found the Zeiss way superior to the Nikons especially in contrast. In fact the smaller Zeiss are just as good optically as my Leicas except for the smaller FOV and they are slightly less bright in low light situations. I feel the Conquests are VERY close to the Zeiss Victory FL's for half the money. The 8x30's are very light and are a nice smaller size without being too small in the hand. I much prefer them to say the Leica Ultravid's 8x20. They will outperform the small Leica's by a wide margin and they are way more comfortable to use. If you look around you can get the Zeiss Conquests 8x30 for less than $500.00 which is a great buy. I think they are often overlooked. I bought them to see how they were and I am amazed how good they are. They are REALLY sharp. I would say they are on par with the Leica's 8x32 BN's also except with a smaller FOV. In fact I think the edge clarity of the Zeiss are superior to the Leica's 8x32 BN's and the Zeiss are lighter. The Zeiss also come with a great case and a nice strap and rain guards(No objective covers but I don't think you need them anyway). Overall a really great binocular bargain!

Dennis
Dennis, in post #51 you say the FL is old hat, but here in an older post you say the 8x30 conquest is "VERY" close to the FL and way superior to the EII, you go on to say the Conquest has sharp edges.

The Conquest 8x30 is my current binocular, I don`t think it has sharp edges, I don`t think its close to the FL, and I don`t think its superior to the EII, so it seems we`re on very different wavelengths when it comes to optics.
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Torview said:
I have the Zeiss Conquest 8x30 T as my portable binoculars and I have the Leica 7x42 BN's as my main ones. I have compared the Zeiss to the Nikon Ell 8x30 and found the Zeiss way superior to the Nikons especially in contrast. In fact the smaller Zeiss are just as good optically as my Leicas except for the smaller FOV and they are slightly less bright in low light situations. I feel the Conquests are VERY close to the Zeiss Victory FL's for half the money. The 8x30's are very light and are a nice smaller size without being too small in the hand. I much prefer them to say the Leica Ultravid's 8x20. They will outperform the small Leica's by a wide margin and they are way more comfortable to use. If you look around you can get the Zeiss Conquests 8x30 for less than $500.00 which is a great buy. I think they are often overlooked. I bought them to see how they were and I am amazed how good they are. They are REALLY sharp. I would say they are on par with the Leica's 8x32 BN's also except with a smaller FOV. In fact I think the edge clarity of the Zeiss are superior to the Leica's 8x32 BN's and the Zeiss are lighter. The Zeiss also come with a great case and a nice strap and rain guards(No objective covers but I don't think you need them anyway). Overall a really great binocular bargain!

Dennis
Dennis, in post #51 you say the FL is old hat, but here in an older post you say the 8x30 conquest is "VERY" close to the FL and way superior to the EII, you go on to say the Conquest has sharp edges.

The Conquest 8x30 is my current binocular, I don`t think it has sharp edges, I don`t think its close to the FL, and I don`t think its superior to the EII, so it seems we`re on very different wavelengths when it comes to optics.
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My opinion is bound to change since I wrote that post! I have had tons of binoculars since then and my tastes have changed.
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Getting back to the difference.... FL... HT... and all that...

In response to the Q&A Zeiss posted on its website: "How much brighter are the new VICTORY HT binoculars compared to the Victory FL binoculars and can I really see the difference?" Zeiss' posted

"The difference to the existing Victory FL range is just a few percentage points in terms of transmission, but is clearly visible in the final, critical moments of twilight."

Whoa.... So it's not in twilight that I'll see a difference, or even in the critical moments of twilight, BUT ONLY during the FINAL critical moments of twilight.

Well, in the "final critical moments of twilight" I'm willing to keep my FLs and mark my observations as "probable."
 
“What makes B different from A?”
“You see better in (though only in) the final critical moments of twilight.”
Extending this dialogue:
“Why’s that bit of time ‘critical’?”
“Because that’s what makes B different from A.”

So Zeiss disappoints again! I mean, of course, in the way they set about their promotion. As a binocular overall the Victory HT is bound to be fantastic. Also, as I said in another thread on this model, it is often not pointed out that a tiny but distinct improvement in brightness should also help in deep shade during daytime.
 
St. Elmo said:
...Zeiss posted .....
"The difference to the existing Victory FL range is just a few percentage points in terms of transmission, ..."
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I still don't understand their math, or engineering.

Per their data, HT glass has .5% (not 5%) more transmission than non HT glass. How did they turn that .5% into "few percentage points..."?
 
Star Farmer said:
I still don't understand their math, or engineering.

Per their data, HT glass has .5% (not 5%) more transmission than non HT glass. How did they turn that .5% into "few percentage points..."?
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As the average over the visible spectrum is about 95% (Zeiss says), it is actually some % (maybe 2-3) better in transmission than the FL (which I thought had 92-93%).

So a small part is due to the use of other glass (HT), but I think better coatings will make for the other (bigger) part.

In any way, it's hard to advertise an improvement when you already have a very high transmission in th FL, and if the margin to improve is very small.
 
temmie said:
As the average over the visible spectrum is about 95% (Zeiss says), it is actually some % (maybe 2-3) better in transmission than the FL (which I thought had 92-93%).
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For background, Allbinos just reviewed the 8x42 fl and put the transmission at 93.9 +/- 1.5% (http://www.allbinos.com/index.php?test=lornetki&test_l=238)

Any enhancement from that would not be too noticeable. May be the HT has other features that should deserve more emphasis.
 
Ad nauseam, but the little Zeiss bird promised me that the AVERAGE transmission between 400-700nm in the HT is EQUAL TO 95%. (don't blame me when this doesn't show in the tests, but this is exactly what I asked to the representative, and he repeated my question word for word, affirmative!).

The graph in the Allbino review shows a PEAK of 93.9% for the FL, and just judging the integral over the 4-700 nm range for transmission, I suspect it does not go over 90%. So that is would be a clear difference (in the numbers, at least).
 
You can see from the FL graph that it must be peak transmission. There is no way that the average between 400-700nm is between 92.4-95.4%. Just a visual estimation of the graph would put the average below 90%. If the HT can give an average of 95% as stated above, then that is quite a large improvement surely?
 

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Star Farmer said:
For background, Allbinos just reviewed the 8x42 fl and put the transmission at 93.9 +/- 1.5% (http://www.allbinos.com/index.php?test=lornetki&test_l=238)

Any enhancement from that would not be too noticeable. May be the HT has other features that should deserve more emphasis.
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I have looked at the recent Allbinos review, and the big negative that
the review points out is the distortion of the FL. They mention the first
curved lines start at 34% from the center, and use the words, "the distortion is huge". And the score for distortion is only a 3 out of a 10.

Zeiss seems to prefer just a nice center view, and high transmission.
And from what has been disclosed the new HT is much the same.
The HT has been promoted for hunters, very bright for low light viewing,
and that is a good thing, but many want more than that.

Jerry
 
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