Marcus Conway - ebirder
Well-known member
Most photographers also wish there were no other photographers in the hide too... live and let live.
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Birders and photographers (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Vivian Darkbloom
- Start date
Phil Carter
Well-known member
Ashley beolens
Breeding the next generation of birders.
Like others here I have been birdwatching over 30 years (photographing them a lot less, maybe 10?) and it is ALWAYS birders who walk up to me, me silently sitting in a hidden dip or under a small hide poncho thing patiently waiting for some bird, break the skyline, distrub what was close and ask me what I am photographing/watching. Fieldcraft is something we all need to learn, and many photographers have better skills than plain birdwatchers, because we need to get closer to the bird for good photos. Yet photographers cameras have started to annoy birdwatchers in hides!! What is this hobby coming to.
Farnboro John
Well-known member
I've always followed a policy of not just live and let live, but active assistance, especially to the less experienced birder. I've always found this to be appreciated.
However, I am now starting to wonder. Certainly I think Captain Yossarian's answer to the chaplain's remonstrance that "suppose everyone thought look after number one?" of "then I'd be a fool to think any other way" has increasing validity.
So what do people want? Helpful friendly John, hoping to be tolerated in his particular spin on birding, or silent except for the rattle of shutter John, assuming the worst in people and letting them stew in their own juice? The people decide - see you in the hide!
John
However, I am now starting to wonder. Certainly I think Captain Yossarian's answer to the chaplain's remonstrance that "suppose everyone thought look after number one?" of "then I'd be a fool to think any other way" has increasing validity.
So what do people want? Helpful friendly John, hoping to be tolerated in his particular spin on birding, or silent except for the rattle of shutter John, assuming the worst in people and letting them stew in their own juice? The people decide - see you in the hide!
John
On a more serious note the levels of intolerance shown on this site sometimes totally amaze me, surely there's enough room available for all the differing interests to be accommodated. There's far too much anti-twitching, anti-photographer, anti-dude and probably worst of all disbelief of others records.[/QUOTE]
And that accurately summarises a number of posts on both this thread and the forum in general. I, like many others and some I know who have posted on this thread, am first and foremost a birder. Technology now allows me to photograph what I love looking at. I am happy to sit in a hide quietly, outside or in my car and wait for the image I want and if someone asks me what I'm looking at I will happily tell them, I may miss the image - do I get annoyed because of it - no what's the point. Likewise when I am outside and stood, sat or lay down waiting to take an photograph do I get annoyed at the person who wanders up and says what are you looking at, what type of camera is that, that's a big lens - we have all heard the comments, no, in spite of them showing a total lack of awareness at what I am doing. Similarly if they need help and ask they will get it. Only last week I had a number of examples in hides of appalling behaviour by birders, not just talking but virtually shouting across the hide of what they were looking at, and they were wrong! By and large I know what I am looking at or for does that make me better than people who don't - no. If I can help them and they want it I personally find that rewarding if I can help them.
Do I hog prime places in hides, even though I may have been there long before other - no, I'm happy to move and rotate. This does not happen enough its all about give and take, share the moment. Do I say good morning when spoken to or respond to others speaking too me, yes. Do I see abject ignorance from people around hides and reserves yes.
I will help anyone to identify birds they don't know, I will tolerate the noise in hides - unless it is clearly impacting the birds, the key message these days is tolerance for all parts of our hobby - that word summarises what we are doing, its a hobby which many follow. I'm no saint, in fact probably more short tempered than most, but, I can see many aspects to birding and believe its a matter of give and take. Make allowance for people's abilities and interests and help when possible.
Phil
And that accurately summarises a number of posts on both this thread and the forum in general. I, like many others and some I know who have posted on this thread, am first and foremost a birder. Technology now allows me to photograph what I love looking at. I am happy to sit in a hide quietly, outside or in my car and wait for the image I want and if someone asks me what I'm looking at I will happily tell them, I may miss the image - do I get annoyed because of it - no what's the point. Likewise when I am outside and stood, sat or lay down waiting to take an photograph do I get annoyed at the person who wanders up and says what are you looking at, what type of camera is that, that's a big lens - we have all heard the comments, no, in spite of them showing a total lack of awareness at what I am doing. Similarly if they need help and ask they will get it. Only last week I had a number of examples in hides of appalling behaviour by birders, not just talking but virtually shouting across the hide of what they were looking at, and they were wrong! By and large I know what I am looking at or for does that make me better than people who don't - no. If I can help them and they want it I personally find that rewarding if I can help them.
Do I hog prime places in hides, even though I may have been there long before other - no, I'm happy to move and rotate. This does not happen enough its all about give and take, share the moment. Do I say good morning when spoken to or respond to others speaking too me, yes. Do I see abject ignorance from people around hides and reserves yes.
I will help anyone to identify birds they don't know, I will tolerate the noise in hides - unless it is clearly impacting the birds, the key message these days is tolerance for all parts of our hobby - that word summarises what we are doing, its a hobby which many follow. I'm no saint, in fact probably more short tempered than most, but, I can see many aspects to birding and believe its a matter of give and take. Make allowance for people's abilities and interests and help when possible.
Phil
BillN
Well-known member
if you want added variety at the "nature reserves" go when it's school holidays, (or on Wednesday afternoon in France when the kids are off), and you'll get prams, pushchairs, sweet papers and kids running around.
You also get folks with small compact cameras taking shots of birds "miles away" for their family albums.
Visitors provide the needed funds to help such places survive and expand, so maybe, sometimes it's not a bad thing.
I'm retired so I can chose when I go - but I ALWAYS take my DSLR and long lens, (just a 300mm prime), as part of the enjoyment for me is looking at the birds later on my computer - it certainly helps me to remember the detail of what I have seen.
You also get folks with small compact cameras taking shots of birds "miles away" for their family albums.
Visitors provide the needed funds to help such places survive and expand, so maybe, sometimes it's not a bad thing.
I'm retired so I can chose when I go - but I ALWAYS take my DSLR and long lens, (just a 300mm prime), as part of the enjoyment for me is looking at the birds later on my computer - it certainly helps me to remember the detail of what I have seen.
Vivian Darkbloom
Well-known member
To acquire a degree of proficiency in birding takes experience and many years of patient diligence and application. There is no short cut.
In the past the same could be said for skill in photography. The ability to produce a picture of quality in the field demanded field craft and artistic flair.
Unfortunately digital cameras have removed that hurdle. Pointing the camera at an object and Firing off a random barrage of shots will probably produce something worthwhile eventually.
The simile of monkeys, typewriters and Shakespeare comes to mind. I just don't see why I have to be in the same room while the monkeys labour noisily away and disturb myself and others.
In the past the same could be said for skill in photography. The ability to produce a picture of quality in the field demanded field craft and artistic flair.
Unfortunately digital cameras have removed that hurdle. Pointing the camera at an object and Firing off a random barrage of shots will probably produce something worthwhile eventually.
The simile of monkeys, typewriters and Shakespeare comes to mind. I just don't see why I have to be in the same room while the monkeys labour noisily away and disturb myself and others.
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BillN
Well-known member
you don't have to - we live in a democracy - go elsewhere as clearly you need to be away from all others as your level of expertise is far higher than any photographer that may be "clicking" away in "the" hide.
(I have been a keen AP since the 70's but in no way would I say that I am an expert or even a good photographer - that takes imagination and skill which I do not possess - but at least I enjoy photography and bird watching when others are around)
A shame that a thread which has a number of objective and clearly articulated arguments falls to this level.
Phil
If only digital photography was that simple!
I suspect (based on my own experiences in hides) you are in the minority and will need to alter your modus operandi; maybe a degree of tolerance or if that fails, ear-plugs!
Russ
dbradnum
Well-known member
What a load of ignorant, ill-informed rubbish.
And you don't have to be in the same room - just go somewhere else.
Vivian is possibly not in the minority on this occasion. The fact that more photographers than birdwatchers have replied, with their usual ignorance of others, speaks volumes. The sole reason why I never visit Cley anymore is simply because the people with their easily acquired credit card cameras have made life unbearable for many.
Hand the hides back to the people they were built for....birdwatchers.
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devon.birder
Well-known member
I believe some photographers get addicted to the sound of their motor drives. I am very tolerant and it doesn't bother me at all, they obviosly enjoy their hobby so live and let live. I was in a hide last year and the only bird within range was an Oystercatcher. A photographer sitting beside me must have taken around 100 shots of this bird, he made at least ten bursts. It must take a lot of time to download the photographs and delete all the ones that are identical. Roger
Leigh Caudwell
Well-known member
I have tried to be tolerant and considerate as I used my cash bought camera equipment but comments like this make me wonder why I bother.
This is rubbish, guess from the conclusion to be drawn from this post I am not a birder anymore because I take photographs as well! How many rare birds have been proven and accepted because someone has photographed it and submitted the record?
Just for reference my equipment was bought with hard earned cash.
There are two sides to every argument, I am glad I can see both, clearly others cannot and make blanket responses.
I personally have no wish to get involved in a slanging match, that would just serve to illustrate what is wrong with a number of threads on this forum, including this one and it just serves to devalue something which at times is valuable and enjoyable.
Phil
Farnboro John
Well-known member
1. All the photographers on here have given reasoned arguments. The anti-photographers have not. Who is guilty of ignorance?
2. Most of the photographers on here have clearly demonstrated that they are birdwatchers, many with years and years of experience. Perhaps by your reasoning they have more right to the hides than you.
3. Photographers in hides have paid the same as the people with noisy children, those who drone on about how bad birding is these days and rustle crisp packets, eat garlic sausage, fart and generally lower the tone of the place. They deserve the same level of consideration from fellow birders (funnily enough, the birder/photographers on here think of "fellow birders". Its the anti-photographers that want to compartmentalise bits of the birding community and rate some bits above others. What does that mean?)
4. My big lens was bought out of my late father's legacy. Consider that the next time you want to blather on about what equipment costs.
5. If you're in the same hide as me, be sure to keep very quiet and not disturb any other hide occupants at their varied approaches to birding.
John
The majority of people using hides on very many nature reserves, certainly the ones I use, aren't birdwatchers.They tend to be mostly retired people, families or people out for a stroll in the countryside with little intimate knowledge of any wildlife group. Typically these people are interested enough
to at least pay an entrance fee (or hopefully join the society in question) and to tolerate all other users.Perhaps, just perhaps, the hides were built to be used by a whole range of people and certainly not for just for some posters here!!
Russ
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