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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Zeiss FL review from the USA (1 Viewer)

gorank said:
seems more like a press release than a review to me...;-)

In which case it's typical of the other reviews on that site. The fact that it is tied to a shop might have some connection with the uncritical review style?
 
Greetings!

Yeah... I saw that review recently, but took it with a MAJOR grain of salt. That particular website is FAR from objective in my personal opinion, having compared their statements to my personal experiences.

Best wishes,
Bawko
 
Atomic Chicken said:
Greetings!

Yeah... I saw that review recently, but took it with a MAJOR grain of salt. That particular website is FAR from objective in my personal opinion, having compared their statements to my personal experiences.

Best wishes,
Bawko

To be fair I´d like to say that review style on birdwatching.com isn´t always critical but otherwise I can´t find something wrong on it. Sources of informations about binoculars and scopes are so rare in the internet that I´m glad about every site with such topics out there. The report about scopes on birdwatching.com for example is complying with my own findings overall.

Steve
 
Comments about the link have been about as I expected. The review, such as it is, is related to an article being developed for Birdwatcher's Digest. Judging from other recent reviews in this magazine, I think the article will probably contain some objective tests in addition to highly subjective comments such as those in the link.
 
Curtis Croulet said:
Comments about the link have been about as I expected. The review, such as it is, is related to an article being developed for Birdwatcher's Digest. Judging from other recent reviews in this magazine, I think the article will probably contain some objective tests in addition to highly subjective comments such as those in the link.


Curtis,

I think the lack of objective, scientific information is what spawns such lively debate. In the last few days I've seen references to edge sharpness where it was explained away by saying one could simply adjust the focus and the edge would be sharp. That means nothing to me. Then I read someone say the SE gave them a "dead" view feeling and I had to read it twice just to make sure I read it correctly. Neither of these remarks related to anything I've been thinking about, so I just accepted them as opinions and continued reading posts.

On the other hand, when someone says the light transmission figure for bin A is 84%, for bin B it's 89%, and for bin C it's 94% I take serious note because that data has real meaning! The other optical qualities we've discussed are probably carefully measured, but rarely publicly reported for a host of reasons.

I asked a question sometime ago that went unanswered so I'll ask it again. Is there some inherent compromise that says if you make the center near perfect, as Zeiss has done on the FL, you won't be able to maintain that level of exellence far away from the center? In other words, does a perfect sweet spot dictate a relatively small sweet spot?

John
 
John, you can do almost anything with optics, but is a matter of trade offs. Cost is one trade off and size/bulk is another. Look at the different designs by Tele Vue in their refractors and their eyepieces.

You might want to post your question to the Yahoo ap-ug email list. Several optics experts answer questions there.

Rich
 
John, I'm not trolling for a renewal of debate on the FL. I'm simply observing that the Porters' review elicited responses in this distinguished forum that fell about as I expected -- i.e. people here want more objective data. However, I think the average birder looking for high-end binoculars is not really interested in tests with resolution charts, and I think such people will in fact find the Porters' review helpful. There's always a bottom line with such products, beyond tests and specifications -- do you like using it? The Porters approached their "test" from that standpoint.
 
Curtis Croulet said:
John, I'm not trolling for a renewal of debate on the FL. I'm simply observing that the Porters' review elicited responses in this distinguished forum that fell about as I expected -- i.e. people here want more objective data. However, I think the average birder looking for high-end binoculars is not really interested in tests with resolution charts, and I think such people will in fact find the Porters' review helpful. There's always a bottom line with such products, beyond tests and specifications -- do you like using it? The Porters approached their "test" from that standpoint.

Curtis,

The FL debate has been silly from the beginning. If you like it, you like it.

The reason I don't care for many of the reviews I've read over they years is that too many are based on limited use. When Steve Ingraham said he chose to use the SE more often than other bins, I listened. When I read he'd been using it for years and it was still a base point for comparison, I listened. His long-term experience with the SE, coupled with his candor, won me over. I bought the SE and fully agree with his analysis. Others don't agree and that's fine; I didn't agree with Steve's analysis of the Nikon LX. In the end, those dollar bill tests only served to pique my interest. Ultimately, my eyes told me what worked and what didn't.

Short-term use reviews aren't very meaningful to me because I've seen excitement evaporate too many times as one product or another failed to meet initial lofty expectations. I enjoy hearing from long-term users on this forum because there's no substitute for surviving the test of time.

I was fascinated that the Porter's felt the need to revisit the EL
http://www.birdwatching.com/optics/binocs2004reviews.html
and that their comments concerning brightness in dim light were of little use considering the competition at that price point. The Ultravid is brighter and the FL brighter still. Maybe an EL owner, who's made the comparison, can illuminate the subject for us.


Happy birding.

John
 
The Porters clearly considered the EL to be the top bin in 2000. Because they feel the FL now poses a serious challenge, they appropriately retested the EL. They (or, rather, their panel of birders in Iowa) still like it. So far, so good. But they don't really address how the two bins compare, which one might think is the point of retesting the EL. Most of their comments about the EL are about ergonomics, not optics. Maybe there will be more information when the final report appears in BWD.
 
I always find these articles minimally useful because I sense reluctance on the reviewer’s part to tell it like they really see it. I prefer critical observations and depth of analysis.

I always start with IPD and eye relief. There are numerous bins with minimum IPD's => 58mm and I can't use any of them effectively. Next is eye relief and I prefer a minimum of 18mm usable ER. Most reviews never mention IPD, and eye relief is usually reported as "adequate". Both are easily measured values, and I've wasted a lot of time because manufacturers didn't make them readily available or reported numeric values that were misleading. Reviewers usually just go along with the information they get fed. Many thanks to those on the board who actually took the time to take careful measurements and report them here.

Light transmission is next. I like to know how much light actually makes it through the lens system. The manufacturers have the numbers and they leak out, but are the leaked numbers reliably accurate? Why doesn’t the manufacturer report these numbers? Surely, the debate over prism type is proof people are interested in the topic! If I was in charge of marketing and your bin's light transmission stood at 84% and mine at 94%, you can bet the 94% would be plastered all over my advertising long before I talked about some obscure prism type.

Instead of waiting for the next reassuring article, why don't owners just keep reporting results from the field with the binocular(s) they own. When someone says "I've had this in the field for more than a few hundred hours and this is what I think about it...", I listen with interest. Thanks to the folks at Birdforum for making this type of exchange possible!

John
 
I own Swarovski 8.5x42, Nikon 8x32 SE and Zeiss 8x42 FL and will in a month or two post a comparative review once I have the measure of the Zeiss.

However, I already have some feel for the Zeiss.

In terms of finish, the Swarovski wins IMO due to the use of metal and rubber which appeals to the engineer in me. Swarovski are renowned for the jewellery like feel of their gear. The Zeiss is excellent, but uses plastic for the hinge covering which IMO is less appealing than metal. The rubber armour is excellent and I am sure the Zeiss is well made. The Nikon is also excellent but it's a pity about the cheap and nasty rain guard.

In terms of ergonomics, both the Zeiss and the Swarovski are excellent and the Nikon is pretty good. The Zeiss focus is very fast/coarse and in some respects an advantage, and in others not. Switching quickly between near and far - e.g. when seeing a Kingfisher dart past - is much easier with the Zeiss, but fine focus is not so easy. The Zeiss focus is beautifully smooth with no backlash. My Swarovski has focus is slow with some backlash. The Nikon focus is rather stiff and almost as coarse as the Zeiss. The Zeiss and Swarovski use the same central diopter mechanism. Both are good. The Nikon has a non-lockable rotating eyepiece mechanism which is also very good.

In terms of optics, the Nikon wins closely followed by the Zeiss, not so closely followed by the Swarovski IMO. The Nikon has a beautifully bright, sharp, contrasty image with little field curvature, and it is almost sharp to the edges. The Zeiss and Swarovski both have excellent sharp images out to about 50% from the centre, and then slight softening starts. Both seem about as bad to me from 50% to 80%, but the Zeiss is worst at the edges. It's a minor issue, but it's there. (I was surprised at the amount of off axis softening in the Swarovski. I think most people including myself tend to examine the on-axis and edge performance.) The Swarovski can be improved somewhat by adjusting the focus. The Nikon and Zeiss both have noticeably higher contrast than the Swarovski. Not a lot, but it's there. The Nikon has almost no distortion and the Swarovski a little more. The Zeiss has slight pin cushion distortion noticeable when panning. It's minor but might annoy some people. Swarovski has the highest resolution closely followed by the Nikon and Zeiss in a tie for second place. The difference is academic unless the binocular is held very steady e.g. on a tripod. However, the slight colour fringing always present through the Swarovski reduces the overall clarity compared to the other two. Both the Nikon and Zeiss have very little CA. The Zeiss has none on axis, the Nikon a little, and the Swarovski a fair bit. Off axis the Nikon and Zeiss are about the same i.e. not a lot, and the Swarovski has a fair bit. All three have excellent depth of field. At night the Zeiss and Swarovski show similar performance, and are noticeably brighter than the Nikon (but the difference in what I could see was smaller than expected). The Zeiss sometimes seemed a bit better than the Swarovski due to the higher contrast I expect. However, I have only done a few brightness tests e.g. viewing fields and a dark farmhouse on a moonlit night. I will try some deep sky objects when we get our once a year clear sky. All control flare extremely well. The Swarovski has always struck me as being exceptionally good in this respect but the Zeiss seems to match it, or at least comes close. Overall both the Zeiss and Nikon give a natural 'own eyes' image, whereas the Swarovski is just a little less natural.

I don't pretend that the above are accurate objective comparisons, merely my own experiences. I know of at least one BF user who owns the same three binoculars and I hope he will add comments if he disagrees, or thinks I have missed something.

I would be interested to hear comparisons of the Zeiss FL with a Leica Ultravid or a Nikon HG(L)/LX.
 
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Leif said:
I own Swarovski 8.5x42, Nikon 8x32 SE and Zeiss 8x42 FL and will in a month or two post a comparative review once I have the measure of the Zeiss. However, I already have some feel for the Zeiss.

Leif,

These are extremely helpful observations. Perhaps these belong in, or should be used to start, another thread?
 
Leif said:
In terms of optics, the Nikon wins closely followed by the Swarovski, not so closely followed by the Swarovski IMO.

One Swarovski too much in that sentence...?? I suspect that you mean that the Zeiss is on second place...??
 
gorank said:
One Swarovski too much in that sentence...?? I suspect that you mean that the Zeiss is on second place...??

Ooops. You have got it in one. I'll back track and say what I meant to say. Thanks.
 
Leif said:
The Zeiss is excellent, but uses plastic for the hinge covering which IMO is less appealing than metal.

Is "plastic" the correct description of this material? Carl Zeiss Sports Optics (the USA organization that finally shows the FL on their website) calls it "glass fiber-reinforced polymer with a 60% glass fiber component." BTW, CZSO persistently uses the term Victory FL.
 
Leif said:
The Zeiss is excellent, but uses plastic for the hinge covering which IMO is less appealing than metal.
I prefer the rubber covering over the hinge, not much fun touching freezing metal surfaces with your fingers on frosty mornings, (o.k. wear gloves)
 
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