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bunting maybe? UK (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jc001
- Start date
deborah4
Well-known member
That looks like the area described. Elevated open farm chalk downland. Be prepared to wade through some Corn Bunting flocks if anyone goes to check it out
birdboybowley
Well-known member.....apparently so ;)
Be prepared to wade through some Corn Bunting flocks if anyone goes to check it out
Should stick out a mile then - it not being a Corn Bunting!!!
deborah4
Well-known member
Should stick out a mile then - it not being a Corn Bunting!!!
Let's hope it's with a flock of Reed Bunting then
dantheman
Bah humbug
Let's hope it's with a flock of Reed Bunting then
So now we have it; everyone keep their eyes peeled for a single Yellowhammer (or Cirl Bunting) associating with a flock of Reed Buntings up on the downs . . .
phil baber
Clipped Wing
That'll be near the Rustic Bunting hybrid jobbie then? :flyaway:
London Birder
Well-known member
has Ivory-billed Woodpecker been ruled out?
Good thread! Another one illustrating the vagaries of image capture algorithms...
At first glance I was confused by the images - I was happy to rule out Reed (combination of pale wing coverts fringes, head and breast pattern, shape/structure etc.) but no other species seemed to fit quite right either...
So hats off to those who suggested Corn early on! Once you accept that the colour representation is not entirely accurate, it instantly becomes clear that's what it is - everything fits bar the apparent rufous tones. I suspect the "misty conditions" caused the camera to adjust white balance, which have introduced more red tones to the image than were there in reality (note that the branches and background also have a slightly unnatural purplish-red hue).
Just to illustrate the point, I took the liberty of saving the image and fiddling with the gamma levels. Once I hit levels where the background and branches looked a bit more "normal" for a misty day, surprise surprise a perfectly ordinary Corn Bunting materialised....
At first glance I was confused by the images - I was happy to rule out Reed (combination of pale wing coverts fringes, head and breast pattern, shape/structure etc.) but no other species seemed to fit quite right either...
So hats off to those who suggested Corn early on! Once you accept that the colour representation is not entirely accurate, it instantly becomes clear that's what it is - everything fits bar the apparent rufous tones. I suspect the "misty conditions" caused the camera to adjust white balance, which have introduced more red tones to the image than were there in reality (note that the branches and background also have a slightly unnatural purplish-red hue).
Just to illustrate the point, I took the liberty of saving the image and fiddling with the gamma levels. Once I hit levels where the background and branches looked a bit more "normal" for a misty day, surprise surprise a perfectly ordinary Corn Bunting materialised....
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deborah4
Well-known member
Nice one Roy! I attempted as much in Post 21, having noticed the 'pinkish/purplish' hue of the branches and 'unnatural' green tones in background but not being a photographer you did a much finer job with it and explained the post-processing anomalies as well as auto camera adjustments much better than I!
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birdboybowley
Well-known member.....apparently so ;)
There's no way that's a Corn Bunting!!! It's just so wrong on jizz alone it's untrue!! Perfectly normal??!! Not sure what you've been ticking as CB's then!!
dantheman
Bah humbug
Is this so they can get ready to start eating them??
Using (presuambly different) methods, are you able to accentuate the colours (eg those 'apparent' rufous tones, and the yellow which is still apparent in the new image) to bring them to levels which would be apparent if the image hadn't been captured on a misty day?? ie show it in its true colours?
deborah4
Well-known member
Corn Buntings hopefully!
(also please note, not once have I actually said the o.p is a Corn Bunting, just that there's not been enough said throughout this thread to rule it out imo, in favor of a Reed/Rustic/Yellowhammer/Cirl/IBWo etc etc .... and more people have joined the thread subsequently without saying why the original features that were compared to all Corn Bunting links, have not been addressed to the contrary despite photographic illustrations to show they are not inconsistent with CB.I think Roy has shown very well how photographic/atmospheric conditions can effect an image. To my mind that hasn't been given as much due consideration by those arguing against a possible CB as perhaps it ought to have done.
Try this for gizz
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Any post-hoc image manipulation is going to be subjective, so "true" colours are impossible to know for sure. My manipulation was purely based on my opinion of what light levels would have been like.
Of course, I could have manipulated the image in the other direction to enhance the red tones (try it if you like!). The killer point is that no matter how much you enhance in that direction, the bird won't begin to resemble anything else - there simply isn't another candidate species that looks like this bird. Even the hybrid theories aren't that tempting (unless someone's going to claim Corn X Chestnut-eared!).
Everything odd about this bird can be explained by a quirk of image capture. Shape, "jizz" and plumage patterns fit squarely within CB variation (in my opinion).
(I'd also add that CB can show a faint yellowish wash to the breast, particularly in winter).
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nickderry
C'est pas ma faute, je suis anglais.
I'd left this debate a few days ago, but as it's still going on, eh, I'm back. After a lot of searching, I've finally found an image of a reed bunting with pale tips to the median coverts, and a lot of corn buntings without. So rather than clarifying anything, it's opened up more questions based on plumage. I'm still firm in the corn bunting camp I think for those that reckon it's a reed bunting, you need to look at the size of the bill, it's just too big for anything other than a caspian reed bunting if we're going down that path. For me the general proportions just don't add up to anything other than corn. I know we'll never reach a consensus on this, but it's nice to have a debate.
Just to point out a couple more features that may not have been mentioned above (all largely unrelated to colour representation):
The toes and claws are extremely long - dangling over the branch - which is a quintessentially Corn Bunting feature (feet/claws more "normal" on Reed and most other Emberiza).
The eyering flares above and below the eye and is quite narrow along the front edge - a typical Corn appearence (narrow all the way round on Reed).
The pale cheek spot is neatly demarkated and rather long, reaching forward almost level with the eye (usually more diffuse and further back on Reed).
Also, the legs appear to be pale (usually dark on Reed), though obviously the precise colour is not trustworthy.
Plus of course, as Nickderry and others have said, that hefty yellowish concave bill is a dead giveaway...
The toes and claws are extremely long - dangling over the branch - which is a quintessentially Corn Bunting feature (feet/claws more "normal" on Reed and most other Emberiza).
The eyering flares above and below the eye and is quite narrow along the front edge - a typical Corn appearence (narrow all the way round on Reed).
The pale cheek spot is neatly demarkated and rather long, reaching forward almost level with the eye (usually more diffuse and further back on Reed).
Also, the legs appear to be pale (usually dark on Reed), though obviously the precise colour is not trustworthy.
Plus of course, as Nickderry and others have said, that hefty yellowish concave bill is a dead giveaway...
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phil baber
Clipped Wing
OK. Hands Up! I surrender!
When I first saw this image I was adamant it was a Reed. But those coverts!
Somehow it just couldn’t be turned into a Rustic!
Like most of us I’ve been studying these images over and over.
Right up until today I was sure it was a Reed.
However, the camp for Corn as an ID was niggling at me. I just couldn’t see it at all.
Even the paintshop CB trials hadn’t convinced me.
So I put the image into photoshop. Tried all kinds of treatments on it.
But, the mind is always trying to make sense of what it perceives, to translate it into something it recognises. It examines the available evidence and makes a decision based on what is more familiar to it.
For me it was the abundance of brown to russet tones in the original pic, coupled with the (apparent) high peaked crown, a sure feature of Reed and Rustic!
So, in Photoshop, my brain wanted to make that so. So I upped the balances to get closer to my ID. But the more I did this, the more unidentifiable the bird became! I almost created a new species! Pretty fine one by the way! (And I’ve ticked it!)
Was then the camera taking an auto reading over-compensating for the odd conditions? Giving the impression of brown/russet tones? I strongly believe so now.
Why did the crown appear so peaked and raised?
I looked at this in juxtaposition with the twig that seems to touch it. (The eye tries to match the twig to the crown…confusing…)
It’s odd, but I now think the bunting’s been snapped in a moment/perspective that is unusual.
Its head is at an odd angle to its body giving a false capture of how its head really looks (a foreshortening element, compressing the face in a strange way?)
Then I went against my ego, and decided to see if I could turn it into a Corn - by messing with the colour, brightness, contrast, saturation, hue, etc.
I came up with this image. (See below).
With all these balances jigged, it struck me suddenly that I had been wrong!
This IS a Corn Bunting! (See what you think from the attached)
So apologies to all who called it as CB and I disagreed.
I should’ve trusted your admirable instincts!
I’ve loved this thread. Because I think it has been about the way we interpret what we see, based on the way our mind works. And sometimes we can be forgiven for that. Making sense of our world is hard enough, but the joy of BF is that it makes it that little bit harder, and ultimately more ENJOYABLE!
The camera never lies?
Oh yes, it flippin’ well does!!!! ;D
PS It’s still ok for Winter Reeds to be up on the Downs. I’ve had ‘em in the weirdest of places. But I’m firmly in the Corn Camp on this one now! (and yes I hang my head!) (Sounds of much “Hat Munching” …)
These by Roy convinced me….
‘Roy:
The toes and claws are extremely long - dangling over the branch - which is a quintessentially Corn Bunting feature (feet/claws more "normal" on Reed and most other Emberiza).
The eyering flares above and below the eye and is quite narrow along the front edge - a typical Corn appearence (narrow all the way round on Reed).
The pale cheek spot is neatly demarkated and rather long, reaching forward almost level with the eye (usually more diffuse and further back on Reed).
Also, the legs appear to be pale (usually dark on Reed), though obviously the precise colour is not trustworthy.
Plus of course, as Nickderry and others have said, that hefty yellowish concave bill is a dead giveaway...
Any post-hoc image manipulation is going to be subjective, so "true" colours are impossible to know for sure. My manipulation was purely based on my opinion of what light levels would have been like.
Of course, I could have manipulated the image in the other direction to enhance the red tones (try it if you like!). The killer point is that no matter how much you enhance in that direction, the bird won't begin to resemble anything else - there simply isn't another candidate species that looks like this bird. Even the hybrid theories aren't that tempting (unless someone's going to claim Corn X Chestnut-eared!).
Everything odd about this bird can be explained by a quirk of image capture. Shape, "jizz" and plumage patterns fit squarely within CB variation (in my opinion).
(I'd also add that CB can show a faint yellowish wash to the breast, particularly in winter).
At first glance I was confused by the images - I was happy to rule out Reed (combination of pale wing coverts fringes, head and breast pattern, shape/structure etc.) but no other species seemed to fit quite right either...
So hats off to those who suggested Corn early on! Once you accept that the colour representation is not entirely accurate, it instantly becomes clear that's what it is - everything fits bar the apparent rufous tones. I suspect the "misty conditions" caused the camera to adjust white balance, which have introduced more red tones to the image than were there in reality (note that the branches and background also have a slightly unnatural purplish-red hue).
If it weren’t for these, I wouldn’t have done a Photoshop on it. Being wrong and admitting it can teach you a lot about yourself. Thanx!
When I first saw this image I was adamant it was a Reed. But those coverts!
Somehow it just couldn’t be turned into a Rustic!
Like most of us I’ve been studying these images over and over.
Right up until today I was sure it was a Reed.
However, the camp for Corn as an ID was niggling at me. I just couldn’t see it at all.
Even the paintshop CB trials hadn’t convinced me.
So I put the image into photoshop. Tried all kinds of treatments on it.
But, the mind is always trying to make sense of what it perceives, to translate it into something it recognises. It examines the available evidence and makes a decision based on what is more familiar to it.
For me it was the abundance of brown to russet tones in the original pic, coupled with the (apparent) high peaked crown, a sure feature of Reed and Rustic!
So, in Photoshop, my brain wanted to make that so. So I upped the balances to get closer to my ID. But the more I did this, the more unidentifiable the bird became! I almost created a new species! Pretty fine one by the way! (And I’ve ticked it!)
Was then the camera taking an auto reading over-compensating for the odd conditions? Giving the impression of brown/russet tones? I strongly believe so now.
Why did the crown appear so peaked and raised?
I looked at this in juxtaposition with the twig that seems to touch it. (The eye tries to match the twig to the crown…confusing…)
It’s odd, but I now think the bunting’s been snapped in a moment/perspective that is unusual.
Its head is at an odd angle to its body giving a false capture of how its head really looks (a foreshortening element, compressing the face in a strange way?)
Then I went against my ego, and decided to see if I could turn it into a Corn - by messing with the colour, brightness, contrast, saturation, hue, etc.
I came up with this image. (See below).
With all these balances jigged, it struck me suddenly that I had been wrong!
This IS a Corn Bunting! (See what you think from the attached)
So apologies to all who called it as CB and I disagreed.
I should’ve trusted your admirable instincts!
I’ve loved this thread. Because I think it has been about the way we interpret what we see, based on the way our mind works. And sometimes we can be forgiven for that. Making sense of our world is hard enough, but the joy of BF is that it makes it that little bit harder, and ultimately more ENJOYABLE!
The camera never lies?
Oh yes, it flippin’ well does!!!! ;D
PS It’s still ok for Winter Reeds to be up on the Downs. I’ve had ‘em in the weirdest of places. But I’m firmly in the Corn Camp on this one now! (and yes I hang my head!) (Sounds of much “Hat Munching” …)
These by Roy convinced me….
‘Roy:
The toes and claws are extremely long - dangling over the branch - which is a quintessentially Corn Bunting feature (feet/claws more "normal" on Reed and most other Emberiza).
The eyering flares above and below the eye and is quite narrow along the front edge - a typical Corn appearence (narrow all the way round on Reed).
The pale cheek spot is neatly demarkated and rather long, reaching forward almost level with the eye (usually more diffuse and further back on Reed).
Also, the legs appear to be pale (usually dark on Reed), though obviously the precise colour is not trustworthy.
Plus of course, as Nickderry and others have said, that hefty yellowish concave bill is a dead giveaway...
Any post-hoc image manipulation is going to be subjective, so "true" colours are impossible to know for sure. My manipulation was purely based on my opinion of what light levels would have been like.
Of course, I could have manipulated the image in the other direction to enhance the red tones (try it if you like!). The killer point is that no matter how much you enhance in that direction, the bird won't begin to resemble anything else - there simply isn't another candidate species that looks like this bird. Even the hybrid theories aren't that tempting (unless someone's going to claim Corn X Chestnut-eared!).
Everything odd about this bird can be explained by a quirk of image capture. Shape, "jizz" and plumage patterns fit squarely within CB variation (in my opinion).
(I'd also add that CB can show a faint yellowish wash to the breast, particularly in winter).
At first glance I was confused by the images - I was happy to rule out Reed (combination of pale wing coverts fringes, head and breast pattern, shape/structure etc.) but no other species seemed to fit quite right either...
So hats off to those who suggested Corn early on! Once you accept that the colour representation is not entirely accurate, it instantly becomes clear that's what it is - everything fits bar the apparent rufous tones. I suspect the "misty conditions" caused the camera to adjust white balance, which have introduced more red tones to the image than were there in reality (note that the branches and background also have a slightly unnatural purplish-red hue).
If it weren’t for these, I wouldn’t have done a Photoshop on it. Being wrong and admitting it can teach you a lot about yourself. Thanx!
Attachments
dantheman
Bah humbug
But you're still wrong . . .
Seriously, I don't wish to argue for arguments sake, so I won't . . .
phil baber
Clipped Wing
But you're still wrong . . .
Seriously, I don't wish to argue for arguments sake, so I won't . . .
I can't be STILL wrong Dan!I completely changed my mind on the ID and gave the reasons why. If you think that i'm wrong, i must be NEW wrong, not STILL wrong! LOL!
Anyway, it's a Corn Bunt!
And it's back at the top!
Happy birding!
dantheman
Bah humbug
Yellowhammer . . . .
The yellow tones are missing - look at those branches- add a bit of yellow . . .they go brown. . .
The bluey-green grass - add a bit of yellow - they go a more natural green. . .
The mystery bunting - add abit of yellow - well now, it's a **********!!!
UNFortunately, I don't have the photoshop skills to try it out!!
The books (Macmillan and Collins) have Yellowhammer (not reed bunting) and Corn Bunting down as major confusion species . . . in this instance I think that's relevant . . .
The OP wondered if it was a Yellowhammer originally - it could be a washed out one in this pic compared to what he saw.
But I will admit I have seen dozens of Corn Buntings and at least tens of Yellowhammers, and possibly even looked at a few of them, so will concede the id on this one . . . at least until I learn to use photoshop . . .
(Calls and songs, did we touch on that . . . . . . . )
So I'll concede, it is a ******-bunting. Happy birding all, until we all meet up on the next 'BF South Downs Bunting Bash' . . .
. . . .The yellow tones are missing - look at those branches- add a bit of yellow . . .they go brown. . .
The bluey-green grass - add a bit of yellow - they go a more natural green. . .
The mystery bunting - add abit of yellow - well now, it's a **********!!!
UNFortunately, I don't have the photoshop skills to try it out!!
The books (Macmillan and Collins) have Yellowhammer (not reed bunting) and Corn Bunting down as major confusion species . . . in this instance I think that's relevant . . .
The OP wondered if it was a Yellowhammer originally - it could be a washed out one in this pic compared to what he saw.
But I will admit I have seen dozens of Corn Buntings and at least tens of Yellowhammers, and possibly even looked at a few of them, so will concede the id on this one . . . at least until I learn to use photoshop . . .
(Calls and songs, did we touch on that . . . .
. . . )So I'll concede, it is a ******-bunting. Happy birding all, until we all meet up on the next 'BF South Downs Bunting Bash' . . .
phil baber
Clipped Wing
Dan,
I'll juice up the yellow tones on it and post 2moro. See what occurs.
I'll juice up the yellow tones on it and post 2moro. See what occurs.
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