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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

FYI Bino Article (1 Viewer)

DavidP said:
No you're right there was a subset of 10 that saw each model. The exact words were
"In the end 40 reviewers donated their time and their strong opinions. Each particpant compared at least 10 models, and each model was tested by at least 10 reviewers. Five of use diehards looked at every single pair."
Guess I should read these things more carefully before i spout off.

However as someone who has yet to purchase a top line binocular it at least pointed me in the direction. I have a Nikon HG 8x42 which I managed to get refurbished at a good price which really is a great instrument and to be honest having looked thru a Zeiss 8x42 Fl I can't see a giant leap forward, although didn't really spend long enough I guess. The swarovski 8.5 x 42 EL did seem a little better but at about $1600 maybe too much for me at the moment.
The rain has stopped here, but console yourself the rain we're having here at the moment is very like UK winters except that they last for several months and by next week this will probbaly be all over.


David

Thanks, David, I feel quite consoled. |=)|

But your Nikon HG 8x42s are one of the finest binoculars in the world, and should serve your needs for a long time. They are definitely top-of-the-line, and from what I hear may survive the rains a bit better than ELs.

-elk
 
elkcub said:
Personally, I see the wisdom in seeking a "satisfying view," and wish we tried to measure that.

Precisely! In the end, that's how most of us decide between top binoculars; that and "overall feel" or usability or ergonomics or whatever. And the Living Bird article approaches binocular testing in that spirit. It's an inadequate test from the standpoint of binocular junkies, but ordinary birders will find it interesting and useful.
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Edited to add:

I don't think anyone should sweat the middling placement of the Nikon HG (assuming it is the same as the Premier LX) among the "Top Guns" in this report. It doesn't give you button-busting bragging points when showing off to other birders, but the Nikon still performed very well, and it handily outperformed all of the bins in the cheaper categories. Also, there's an interaction between perceived optical properties that is not always (IMHO) adequately recognized. The Nikon has a narrower FOV than some other top models, and this can subtly alter one's perception of its overall "image quality." This is where objective resolution tests could be useful -- to separate fact from perception.
 
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Curtis,

I can't help but sweat the Nikon remarks just a little. Just as I was a bit perturbed with the Swaro remarks I was bothered by the Nikon remarks. They are written about as a 2nd class bin. I believe the Lab may have received a pair or 2 that was a bit off optically. They did say that one reviewer mentioned they had CA. I believe that is the opinion of many BFers also. But I believe the same has been said here of the Swaro ELs and the Ultravids.

The author says that the 8x42 LXLs got negative remarks for a heavier and bulkier feel. This does corresopnd tothe rankings, they only got a 3.6 for "Overall Feel". The other 42mm Top Guns (exc. the Trinovids and BL) got scores from 4.4 to 4.9 In fact for this category the LXLs rate equal or just above the 42mm SLCs which are 6-8 oz heavier! I say BAH! The reviewers are on dope. I don't get it at all. The 8.5xELs are also longer AND heavier, yet they get the 4.9.

I can see someone liking the ergonomics of the ELs over the Nikons, but I think alot of folks would be of the opposite opinion also.I have pretty small hands and thought the LXLs felt great. I would take them over the Leicas and Swaros any day of the week.

I understand that there are gonna be differences of opinion. I just hope the article doesn't result in alot of folks overlooking the Nikons.

Ok, now I'll play conspiracy theorist. Nikon did not have an ad in the issue. Swaro had the inside front cover, Leica had 2 half page ads Zeiss had a full page.

Brunton had the inside back cover and fared a tad worse than the Nikons.
 
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Bill, it's possible for someone, even lots of people, to have a different opinion without it implying an ulterior motive. The blunt fact is that, in this survey, people liked the Swarovski EL more than the Nikon. Remember, too, that the Nikon LX tested was a prototype (so says the article). Maybe production bins have better optics, though I doubt the ergonomics have changed.

Edited: Nikon "LB" (?) corrected to "LX."
 
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Curtis Croulet said:
Bill, it's possible for someone, even lots of people, to have a different opinion...

The problem Curtis, is that people aren't recognizing that my opinion is the correct one!
 
I clearly recall the first time one of these "Living Bird" group tests seriously POed me. It was 1988 and not only did they dump on my favorite birding binocular of the time, a CZJ 8X50 Octarem, but they added insult to injury by lavishing praise on a bunch of non-phase corrected roof prism binoculars, some of which I had already bought and rejected as inferior. Even in those days they tended to dismiss porros even though the roof prism bins of the time, how can I put it, just plain sucked. I've never forgiven them for that, but I have dutifully read a few more of these things over the years. Their methods don't seem to have changed much except that now there are even more cooks in the kitchen and pots on the stove (the 1988 test had "only" 11 testers and 27 binoculars). IMHO the results are naturally and inevitably superficial at best and seriously wayward at worst. Obviously these things don't represent the Cornell Lab at its scientific and professional best. There is a big difference between peer reviewed research and offering up largely anonymous and scarcely justified opinions, but surely these tests are not taken very seriously by the people who do them. In fact, I think they are probably considered play time by the staff members. Little do these casual "party testers" realise just what sort of adverse effect assigning 4.9 instead of 5.0 might have on an insecure binocular owner's sense of well-being! ;-)
 
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Interesting to know they've been POing folks since before I was birding!

Actually...Nikon fell down on the job here too. Apparently they only sent the 8x & 10x Monarchs, the 8x 32mm HG, and the 8x42 LXLs. They didn't ship any of their worthy porros, nor the 10x HGs/LXs.
 
Henry,

I need some help on the thread "Porro and roof object size." Post #3.

Thanks,

-elkcub
 
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Curtis Croulet said:
If Nikon doesn't send an SE for evaluation, then it doesn't get tested.

Why shouldn't they be?

If we could rank these by each and every column like a spreadsheet in Excel, then the factors most important to the reader could be considered more easily without categories being necessary. Price should be a factor and listed like the FOV or eye relief, but not a category.

I think if the Cornell spreadsheet could be sorted by the QI column, you would see what I'm talking about. The Nikon HG is a good example being in the less than $1000 category when it probably rates better by Cornell Lab's survey, than many in the over $1000 category.

I would like to be able to manipulate the spreadsheet by each factor that was rated depending on my own priorities and let the sorting of each criteria include every sample.

About the Nikon SE, I understand that they were depending on samples provided by the different companies, but this bin has been a benchmark for some time and they should have borrowed one if need be. And, there may be others that should have been included as well. I have never seen the test that included them all. Impossible.

I would not give this or any single test or list that I have seen too much weight overall. It is just interesting to see the opinions of others even if they are rehashing the same things that are discussed in this forum 24/7.

It is interesting and fun to consider, but in the final analysis, we all have to be our own judge of what suits our budget and personal criteria and a subjective test like this has to be taken with a grain of salt gleaning whatever can be useful.


I have enjoyed reading everyones comments.
 
thom3321 said:
If we could rank these by each and every column like a spreadsheet in Excel, then the factors most important to the reader could be considered more easily without categories being necessary. Price should be a factor and listed like the FOV or eye relief, but not a category.

I think if the Cornell spreadsheet could be sorted by the QI column, you would see what I'm talking about. The Nikon HG is a good example being in the less than $1000 category when it probably rates better by Cornell Lab's survey, than many in the over $1000 category.

I would like to be able to manipulate the spreadsheet by each factor that was rated depending on my own priorities and let the sorting of each criteria include every sample.

About the Nikon SE, I understand that they were depending on samples provided by the different companies, but this bin has been a benchmark for some time and they should have borrowed one if need be. And, there may be others that should have been included as well. I have never seen the test that included them all. Impossible.

I would not give this or any single test or list that I have seen too much weight overall. It is just interesting to see the opinions of others even if they are rehashing the same things that are discussed in this forum 24/7.

It is interesting and fun to consider, but in the final analysis, we all have to be our own judge of what suits our budget and personal criteria and a subjective test like this has to be taken with a grain of salt gleaning whatever can be useful.


I have enjoyed reading everyones comments.
The optics in the Nikon SE 8X32 are as good as it gets. I've seen multiple samples of the best and the brightest and I still think my SE has the best image. My dinky little SE porro is my primary binocular. My backup is an Ultravid 7X42. You'll never read that in a Cornell review!

John

PS
Don't waste time on the Cornell review. It's only opinion; you'll get better evaluations from owners on this forum.
 
thom3321 said:
...
It is interesting and fun to consider, but in the final analysis, we all have to be our own judge of what suits our budget and personal criteria and a subjective test like this has to be taken with a grain of salt gleaning whatever can be useful...

I really liked your comments about how the opinion data might have been presented and used more effectively. Considering the large number of binoculars and observers involved, many of whom fit into interesting demographic categories, it's a real shame the data weren't collected and analyzed more rigorously. (see Henry Link's excellent post #67) As I've mentioned earlier, there are times when technical collaborations would be extremely beneficial, in this instance between orithologists, opticians, and survey statisticians. Although a university setting is the best place for this, I guess it all comes down to the personalities and ambitions of those involved. In this case your suggestion about using a few grains of salt is quite appropriate.

Ed
 
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What is it with Swarowski,leica, and Zeiss ? I am a birder and nature watcher I looked through many binoculars including high end ones and the high ends weights,close focus or optics are not much better than midpriced binoculars It is all "hype"Birding is about fun not status have and have nots midpriced binoculars hold their own with nice optics and reasonable prices and offer great views enjoy birding with what you can afford many excellent Binoculars like Kowa and Leupold for less money and nice optics.
 
What is it with Swarowski,leica, and Zeiss ? I am a birder and nature watcher I looked through many binoculars including high end ones and the high ends weights,close focus or optics are not much better than midpriced binoculars It is all "hype"Birding is about fun not status have and have nots midpriced binoculars hold their own with nice optics and reasonable prices and offer great views enjoy birding with what you can afford many excellent Binoculars like Kowa and Leupold for less money and nice optics.

You are right. The high end binos are certainly quality instruments, no doubt about it.

But, the mid priced binoculars are excellent as well, and for the vast majority of us, perfectly fine and will serve us well for many years.

Websites such as this one, and in fact, hunting websites (optics sections), draw hardcore enthusiasts, and for many such enthusiasts, nothing but the absolute best will do.

The number of people posting on this site, and others, is a tiny, tiny fraction of the number of people using binoculars.
 
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