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Will the Big 4 ever become the Big 5? (1 Viewer)

Great topic guys. I just saw this now and noticed 19 posts in a less than a day. It must be a popular issue.

I tend to agree with the previous comments that even if there is a binocular now that exists in terms of the quality and cutting edge design of the big four it is going to take something more to establish the mystique around them. Clever marketing is a big part of that. The new bins have to not only be the equal to the big four but they also have to be seen to be the equal.

There are several binocular I have owned in recent years that are knocking on the door of the big boys and a few I would still love to get my hands on.

As always I feel obligated to give my usual Meopta Meostar plug here. They are the only bins I have owned that I feel really do compare directly with the big boys.....if they just had a tad bit less CA in the outer 1/2 of their field of view. ;) Give me a pair with ED or FL glass and I would have no problem putting them toe to toe with the likes of Leica, Swaro, Zeiss or Nikon.
 
Having started this thread, and after giving it some more thought, I agree that Minox could be the brand most likely to join the others at the top.

They have a great heritage of making superb miniature film cameras and have promoted this with their 'classic digital cameras'. Their binoculars get rave reviews and seem to be beautifully made precision objects.

I think they need to produce one top-of-the-range model with some special styling or user features and a price tag substantially higher that the current models. If they emphasise their history and encourage a few television natural history celebrities to start using their products who knows what could happen?

Ron
 
To much snobbery

It's obvious we would all like to walk around with hundreds of pounds worth of bins around our necks that come from the big 3/4 names. I don't see any mention of opticron, they are as good as any other bins that I have tried. I own a pair of Opticron Countryman BGA 10x50:t: . In my opinion they are the best. it's all down to personal preference and the size of your pocket.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77802802@N00/
 
Seems that whoever wants to join the big boys needs to manufacture something with stiff focus wheels, that weighs a ton, clonks when you hold it up to the sky and that has a lot of quality inconsistency between pairs. Then they'll have cracked it. Meanwhile, I'm sticking with my Swift HHSs. PS I was once told that the chairman (or maybe it was the MD) of Swarovski actually used Zeiss bins or is this just a scurrilous rumour?
 
CORVUS1 said:
It's obvious we would all like to walk around with hundreds of pounds worth of bins around our necks that come from the big 3/4 names. I don't see any mention of opticron, they are as good as any other bins that I have tried. I own a pair of Opticron Countryman BGA 10x50:t: . In my opinion they are the best. it's all down to personal preference and the size of your pocket.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77802802@N00/
Click to expand...

I think you're right, a lot of it is about snobbery, but that's the world we live in now where the correct label is everything.

There are many excellent low to mid price binoculars from other manufacturers. I agree, Opticron sell some very good binoculars at amazingly low prices. My partner has a pair of Opticron Discovery 8x42 binoculars and she loves them. I have a pair of Swift HHS roofs which I think are excellent but, for whatever reason, neither brand is an aspirational one. The Big 4 still sit imperiously at the top of pile as objects of desire.

I suppose as some of their products are among the most expensive available people natrually assume that they must be the best. It is also self perpetuating. The more people buy these binoculars, the more they are in evidence so the more people will see them as the binoculars to buy without considering the alternatives.

I'm ashamed to admit even I start drooling ever so slightly whenever I see a pair of Swarovski ELs or Leica Ultravids. I'm just as bad as everyone else.

Ron
 
KorHaan said:
I'm not totally loyal to one particular brand. I own FL's, very nice indeed, but if a manufacturer would put a binocular on the market that would answer all of my personal demands on ERGONOMICS, I would buy one, even if the optics were of a lesser quality.

Double focus wheel. Sun shades on the ocular tubes for SPECTACLE wearers.
Image stabilization. Not heavy ( GFRP body ). Waterproof. Built-in doubler ( 8x-16x ). Standard tripod attachment not at the far end of the hinge, but underneath the binocular, where it should be, so you would not need a tripod adapter.
To name a few.

It's the ergonomics that I feel are far more important to me than the optics, and I certainly hope the " sub-division " brands are not entirely going to focus on better optics.

Greetings, Ronald
Click to expand...


Hi Ronald,

lots of good ideas. I very much agree. I don´t care the name of the brand of the optics I use as long as they fulfill my needs. Also a nice workmanship is welcome. I think it´s also the workmanship that makes Swaro and Leica bins that attractive. The ergonomics should be as important as the optics. This topic is IMO frequently underestimated and is worth to get its own thread.

Steve
 
NoSpringChicken said:
At the moment the ultimate binoculars for most birders appear to come from the ranges of Leica, Swarovski, Zeiss or Nikon. Several other manufacturers now offer products with prices approaching those of the Big 4. I am thinking of such manufacturers as Steiner, Kowa, Minox, Meopta and possibly Vortex.
Click to expand...

I'm sure it will happen, but I'd also not be shocked to see one of the top four fall away a bit - it's bound to happen in time. From what I've seen none of the manufacturers you mentioned are quite there yet, but I'm sure one of them will get there soon. I also think that Canon could be added to the list, given the quality of their lenses it would be interesting to see what they could do if they entered the top end optics market in a serious way.
 
I have never seen Optricon products anywhere in the USA.
Are they only available in the UK or Europe? I hear a lot of good reports about them.
I believe i read somewhere that they are rebadged Vixens .Is there an basis for that?
Brian.
 
medinabrit said:
I have never seen Optricon products anywhere in the USA.
Are they only available in the UK or Europe? I hear a lot of good reports about them.
I believe i read somewhere that they are rebadged Vixens .Is there an basis for that?
Brian.
Click to expand...

Opticron sell a huge range of binoculars. You can have a look at their website and see if they resemble any of the brands you are familiar with.

http://www.opticron.co.uk/

If you look at the section on 'purchasing your equipment' you will see that they provide a worldwide mail order service. You would not be able to look at and try the products before purchasing, however.

Ron
 
marcus said:
Stop fooling around and add Pentax to that good list! Forgot about them?
Click to expand...
I'm afraid to say I had. In the UK Pentax have got a low but rapidly rising profile as binocular and scope manufacturers. To me the name Pentax conjures up memories of excellent SLR cameras in the '70s and '80s.

When I looked at the specifications of their optics they appeared very impresive but I was staggered by the price of the zoom lenses. Perhaps that is only in the UK, though.

Who knows, with good products and that heritage behind them they might well end up challenging for top spot.

Ron
 
Last edited:
SteveClifton said:
When I started birding, there was only really the big 2 (Zeiss and Leica.) Swarovski existed in the form of Habicht, though very few people used them, and Nikon were known primarily as a camera manufacturer. Swarovski have broken into the bins market in a big way in the last 20 years-just goes to show, if the quality is there people will pay for it-whatever the price.

In that time we seem to have lost Optolyth almost altogether, whereas many unknown companies have come into the limelight. Who knows, perhaps in another 20 years a completely unknown company will be on top?
Click to expand...

If we go back a bit more, say 40 or so years, there were as far as I remember, only two excellent spotting scopes for birding: Bausch & Lomb from the US and Kern from Switzerland. Both have vanished. All of today's top manufacturers came in later with better products. They may have had scopes for hunters, of the extendable type, but no top products for birders. I think Kowa was first to break into that market. And it was not until the entry of Leica that waterproof scopes started to become the new standard.
 
NoSpringChicken said:
I think you're right, a lot of it is about snobbery, but that's the world we live in now where the correct label is everything.

There are many excellent low to mid price binoculars from other manufacturers. I agree, Opticron sell some very good binoculars at amazingly low prices. My partner has a pair of Opticron Discovery 8x42 binoculars and she loves them. I have a pair of Swift HHS roofs which I think are excellent but, for whatever reason, neither brand is an aspirational one. The Big 4 still sit imperiously at the top of pile as objects of desire.

I suppose as some of their products are among the most expensive available people natrually assume that they must be the best. It is also self perpetuating. The more people buy these binoculars, the more they are in evidence so the more people will see them as the binoculars to buy without considering the alternatives.

I'm ashamed to admit even I start drooling ever so slightly whenever I see a pair of Swarovski ELs or Leica Ultravids. I'm just as bad as everyone else.

Ron
Click to expand...


It can't merely be snobbery. Or else, all those serious tests would be manipulated? Rather, it turns out that it's always the same few brands that are just that wee little bit better than the rest. And it's difficult to get there. An experience Kowa is making with their attempt to get into the top ranks also with binoculars. It's an altogether different question whether that "wee little bit better" is also noticeable in everyday use. And it's there where some snobbery may well creep in.

But what is or is not noticeable also depends on the individuals' eyes. Thus, some slight differences may be clear to some people whereas others claim there is no difference. I can see this when we discuss binoculars among friends. A typical case in point are the Minox binoculars. Some among us claim they are top, others feel they just are not. I, for one, just can't feel comfortable with what I see with them. And here on BF, there are lots of cases where some claim they see a lot of CA, but others don't notice any.
 
Swissboy said:
If we go back a bit more, say 40 or so years, there were as far as I remember, only two excellent spotting scopes for birding: Bausch & Lomb from the US and Kern from Switzerland. Both have vanished. ...
Click to expand...


Hi Robert / Switzerland,

Actually, Bausch and Lomb has become Bushnell.

Robert / Seattle
 
Robert / Seattle said:
Hi Robert / Switzerland,

Actually, Bausch and Lomb has become Bushnell.

Robert / Seattle
Click to expand...

I know, but they were still an independent company when they had that (at the time) top of the line scope. I still own one of those Balscopes. Not that I use it now, but there are some nostalgic feelings involved.
 
Swissboy said:
I know, but they were still an independent company when they had that (at the time) top of the line scope. I still own one of those Balscopes. Not that I use it now, but there are some nostalgic feelings involved.
Click to expand...

I know the feeling. I still have a pair of their 9x35 porros. Not bad, but excellent as nostalgic memorabilia.
 
medinabrit said:
I do realize that the studio photags are still using the hassleblads, Rollei etc but many are using Mamiya Bronica & Pentax cameras that i never heard of as a kid in the 50,s
And all i seem to see on the news are hordes of photags with Nikons.
I may be wrong but in another 50yrs it may be all Chinese stuff.
The times they are a changing.
Hope i,m wrong though.
Brian.
Click to expand...
Gone are Bronica. Gone. Same with Contax.

Hasselblad's 6x6 cameras have been reduced to a single model, even with accommodations for digital backs. They have been re-named the "V-series", as in Victor Hasselblad. That is a half-step away from commemorative-model status. Hasselblad's Fujinon-partnered 35mm panoramic camera is no longer made. The only line with any development appears to be the 645 H-series digital. Wasn't Hassy the 6x6 company? Wasn't that what Rollei were all about?

Canon has been No. 1 some time now.
 
CHenry said:
Gone are Bronica. Gone. Same with Contax.

Hasselblad's 6x6 cameras have been reduced to a single model, even with accommodations for digital backs. They have been re-named the "V-series", as in Victor Hasselblad. That is a half-step away from commemorative-model status. Hasselblad's Fujinon-partnered 35mm panoramic camera is no longer made. The only line with any development appears to be the 645 H-series digital. Wasn't Hassy the 6x6 company? Wasn't that what Rollei were all about?

Canon has been No. 1 some time now.
Click to expand...

And not because they're #1 in quality!

One reason Hasselblad hasn't been selling more cameras is that they were built to last, and we professionals, (and advanced amateurs as well), are still using our original purchases of 20 or more years ago. (I doubt you will find any current digital camera model in use in 20 years).

Another reason is that they (Hasselblads) were all designed as concept systems cameras, capable of "infinite" growth and adaptability with ongoing, even unanticipated, developments. That means my 500CM from the early 80's or my Arc Body from the late 90's can be fitted with the digital backs from the early 2000's. This is a characteristic of its quality and will not result in higher sales figures for the company in the short run (in the long run? - who can say).

It would be spurious to confuse sales figures with utility and quality preferences amongst practicing professionals. I also own and use what is considered to be state of the art digital cameras - 6 in all. And I must confess that I'm waiting for this supply side industry to settle down a bit before taking it all too seriously - it's raher like photographing with tupperware. They break, they come out with the next quarter's new model, you buy it, they post a profit -- and all then assume that the elevated sales figures are coincident with product quality - when in fact it's just the opposite. You are paying dearly for some CEO's R and D.

There. I said it!

Digital sure is fun, and convenient much of the time. But if you guy's demanded more from the producers, say as much as you require of your binocular manufacturers, I dare say that the digital camera industry would be providing us with far better products than are currently landing on the shelves.

Beware of all things plastic. It reeks of "improvements to follow".
 
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