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Camera crop factor (1 Viewer)

Subject resolution is the key to how much an image can be usefully cropped - ie how many pixels are covered by the desired bit of the image. A number of factors will interplay here.
Pre-sensor - focal length, ie how big the image is projected on the sensor. Also, most crucially, subject distance from the camera.
Sensor - pixel density rather than pixel dimensions of the whole sensor (assuming that the subject does not use the majority of the sensor). Also, although not strictly relevent to the current discussion is pixel quality - I remember a debate about small vs large pixels, the upshot of which was that larger pixels had better dynamic range and less noise generaton than small pixels.
Post-sensor - interpolation. Many approaches to this, which I am not well enough informed about to debate, but the fundamental priciples are less interpolation introduces fewer artifacts, and a good quality starting point will give a better result than a poor starting point. (Seems obvious, but this is where the pixel quality debate comes in)
Finally output - I dont need 16Mp to produce a web image, but I do need it for a decent A3+ print, or for picture libraries.

To be really objective and be able to compare things across different platforms, from APS to 5"X4" scanned trannies via digiscoped images, what we really ought to use is 'field of view', but I certainly cant visualised what the numbers mean as easily as I can visualise what the (35mm equivalent) focal length implies - daft really when you think about it, as the FOV is exactly what it says, but I think most photographers use the same shorthand as me.
 
Gordon
I agree with most of what you say, but not interpolation. The resolution of an object in an image will remain the same before and after interpolation. No post processing can change the inherent resolution in an image.

Adrian
 
Gordon
I agree with most of what you say, but not interpolation. The resolution of an object in an image will remain the same before and after interpolation. No post processing can change the inherent resolution in an image.

Adrian

Sorry, I should have been clearer in what I was saying. The pixels you start with are all you have to work on. What I meant was that after capturing the image, it can be 'upsized' by interpolation, giving a higher post-processed pixel count by inventing a load of extra pixels. Then the arguments about pixel quality in the original image have some relevance.
Strictly speaking, resolution is pixels/inch, so is independent of the actual pixel count and not affected by interpolation, but in practical terms, more pixels will give a larger image at the same resolution.
 
Gordon
I agree with most of what you say, but not interpolation. The resolution of an object in an image will remain the same before and after interpolation. No post processing can change the inherent resolution in an image.

Adrian


Adrian's right here, but if we go back to the good old days of film, we instructed by ‘enlargement factor’, plus or minus 100%. The words ‘crop factor’ is misleading because by definition it means reduction. The word ‘crop’ in photographic/design terms means the composition of an image to suit its function. Resolution was always standard and at 100%, so there was no ambiguity about size, and quality.

Digital is totally different because there is no set standard resolution, people still don’t understand (and I include people who should know better), about resolution and the amount of ‘enlargement factor’ they have applied to their image.
 
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Gordon,
You are right to point out pixels per inch (or mm) or pixel density. A lot of ads refer to the resolution of a camera as the total number of pixels which is a bit misleading.

Rob - I agree;)
 
Mark, from a practical point of view, you are right, there would be little difference from your cited example, but not as a result of the crop factor. The pixel size for your1D2N is 8.2u and your wife's 20D is 6.4u, so the 20D will have 8.2/6.4 better resolution by a factor of 1.28x. So to have the same image scale viewed at 100% on a computer monitor, your 1D2n will need to have a lens of 512mm focal length to match your wife's 400mm lens. Notice this has nothing to do with the FOV.

Taking another example, I have a 5D and 500mm F4 lens. The pixel size on the 5D is 8.2u. If I upgrade to a 1DsMkIII (pixel size 6.4u), although the FOV is the same at 35mm, the image scale is better on the 1DsMkIII by a factor of 8.2/6.4 = 1.28. This means that to achieve the image scale for the new camera the 5D would need a lens of 640mm focal length. Therefore the smaller pixels of the 1DsMkIII are offering better resolution despite the same crop factor. Amazingly, at no expense of increased noise too.

Adrian

Adrian - sorry I missed your explanation first time around but still trying to get my head around all of this.

Until now I'd presumed upgrading from a 6 mpix to a 10 mpix camera would result in an identical image being recorded with the key difference being the 10 mpix camera would use 40% more pixels to record the image and therefore be capable of capturing more detail.

Unfortunately whilst looking around for a new camera the precise pixel size isn't the easiest thing to find out. As a guide would I normally be correct to assume that the scale of an image taken by a 300mm lens on a 10 mpix and viewed at 100% on a computer monitor be the same as an image taken at 480mm lens on a 6 mpix?

Basically if restricted to a limited budget with most of my photo's being viewed on screen would I be better off buying a new camera or a longer lens?

Help appreciated (maths was never a strong point)

Thanks
 
Adrian - sorry I missed your explanation first time around but still trying to get my head around all of this.

Until now I'd presumed upgrading from a 6 mpix to a 10 mpix camera would result in an identical image being recorded with the key difference being the 10 mpix camera would use 40% more pixels to record the image and therefore be capable of capturing more detail.


Not sure which camera's you are referring to, but most likely that the 10MP camera will be better than the 6MP one. From your example above, your statement would be true if the two camera's have the same field of view (FOV)

Unfortunately whilst looking around for a new camera the precise pixel size isn't the easiest thing to find out. As a guide would I normally be correct to assume that the scale of an image taken by a 300mm lens on a 10 mpix and viewed at 100% on a computer monitor be the same as an image taken at 480mm lens on a 6 mpix?

It can be difficult to find the pixel dimensions, but if you look at the Canon web site, the chip size (say horizontal dimension) divided by the number of pixels in that dimension gives you the pixel size. I cannot answer your comparison above because you need to know the chip size for the camera's you mention. The detail or pixel density is determined by the number of pixels for a given area. So for example, you could have two camera's with the same pixel density, but one camera has twice as many pixels. What this means is the camera with more pixels has a larger chip and larger FOV.

Basically if restricted to a limited budget with most of my photo's being viewed on screen would I be better off buying a new camera or a longer lens?

Ha, not any easy question to answer! perhaps both;) But remember the average life time of a digital camera is two years and a lens is many more years longer.

Hope this makes sense
Adrian
 
Well, I'm going to bravely stick my neck out here. I'm sorry, but I am one of these folks who are being mislead by the manufacturers when they say that you get extra magnification (to use a non-technical term) because of the crop factor of small sensors. I guess I also understand what is being said here in this thread, but in practical terms I do not understand it at all.

What I mean is if I have two 8MP cameras, one with a 1.6 factor small sensor and one with a full-frame sensor, and I put the same lens on both and take a picture of the same object at the same distance, the object will fill more of the frame in the image I get out of the small-sensor camera, because of this 1.6 crop factor. Both cameras give me a 3264 x 2448 pixel image.

At that point, I would have to crop the image from the full-frame camera down to say 2800 x 2100 to have the object fill the frame.

What I do not understand is - are you saying that this 2800 x 2100 image (full-frame camera) can be printed up to the same maximum size as the 3264 x 2448 image (small-sensor camera) because the full-frame image's pixels are larger, so it evens out?

If in fact the 2800 image cannot yield as large a print, then I really don't understand this whole issue in practical terms. Why do I put so much emphasis on print size? Well, I guess I really mean maximum presentation size, in whatever media you want. I mean, why are medium format and large format film cameras better than 35mm cameras? Ultimately doesn't it boil down to the fact that you can enlarge their negatives to a larger size. If you only produce 4x6 prints out of each format, there is no advantage to the larger format.

So to summarize - please answer - can this hypothetical cropped 2800 x 2100 image produce the same maximum size prints, projection, or whatever, as the 3264 x 2448 image?
 
If both cameras have pixel dimensions of 3264 x 2448, then the smaller chip camera must have smaller dimensional pixels and a higher pixel density. The smaller camera will yield better resolution of an object within the frame. Both camera's uncropped can be printed to the same size, but if you crop one of the camera's then printing to large sizes will be less effective.

Which camera's are you thinking of?
Adrian
 
If both cameras have pixel dimensions of 3264 x 2448, then the smaller chip camera must have smaller dimensional pixels and a higher pixel density. The smaller camera will yield better resolution of an object within the frame. Both camera's uncropped can be printed to the same size, but if you crop one of the camera's then printing to large sizes will be less effective.

Which camera's are you thinking of?
Adrian
I'm not thinking of any particular camera. I am just trying to get a handle on the PRACTICAL meanings of what is being said in this thread. Any "full-frame" 8MP camera versus any "small-sensor" 1.5 or 1.6 camera; any 10MP full versus any 10MP small-sensor; etc. using the same lens on both cameras, taking a picture of the same object at the same distance.

From what I can understand in this thread, everyone is saying that the small-sensor camera crop-factor does NOT in fact give your lenses more magnification, and that anyone who thinks that it does is a fool.

But in my example, from your answer, when you crop the full-frame sensor's image to have the object fill the frame, the result CANNOT be printed as large as the uncropped image from the small-sensor camera. This is as I would expect, and no surprise at all. But to me this means that the small-sensor 1.6 "crop factor" really does make a difference and it has in fact added magnification to your lens. I don't mean in techincal optical terms but I mean in practical result terms.
 
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RAH - we are debating two related but different things! As you rightly say, an image that has more pixels in it can be printed at a larger size while still at a reasonable resolution ( the pixels/inch thing - more pixels=more inches at the same resolution). BUT, the focal length of a lens is determined by the lens construction and has nothing to do with the sensor. The sensor size affects the field of view only. The actual area of the sensor occupied by the subject (assuming the same distance from the sensor) will be the same if you are using the same lens on different sensors. This is where the pixel density bit comes in - higher pixel density=more pixels used in a given area. Hence, a sensor with a higher pixel density will allow a larger output (at the same resolution) than crop of the same area from a lower pixel density sensor.

Clear as mud!?
 
Hi all,

I think what people are trying to find out is this????? Is it worth going for a pro or semi pro body over lets say a 30d for opportunistic bird photography, in that I mean not spending all day cramped up in a hide. I know its acknowledged that a pro canon 1ds m2 would produce a better photograph overall before cropping than lets say a 20d. But what about when, lets say, we have cropped out about half of the original image(a bit more for the 1ds). The 20d image contains more pixels due to the higher crop factor (?), so in the theory it has the potential to resolve more detail. Or does the superior pro sensor beat the 20d with less pixels. Some people have tried answering this above using mathematics. But to be honest this is Bull**** because, that is like saying I'm not gonna bother upgrading from a 600mm canon to the 800mm canon because I'm waiting for the new camera body with more pixels which will compensate for lower mag. Has anyone actually ever tried taking side by side images with pro and non pro bodies using the same magnification lenses and pixel peeping to see which one produces the most detail of the same cropped objects???
Kev

If so I would love to see a few examples

p.s please no comments about lots of practice will yield superior stalking technique which enables no need for the cropping of photos.
 
Seriously Kevin, is that posting meant to encourage people to contribute to the discussion?

What people have already posted is "bull****" (even though maths is the only way to explain what's going on - pictures posted on a website surely won't, if only because of all the different monitors out there that people would be viewing - but maybe not seeing - the subtle differences on); and we're not allowed to suggest that practice and stalking sklls are worth obtaining...
 
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RAH - Your assumptions are mostly correct, particuarly that a 1.6 crop does not improve magnification, just a smaller FOV. This of course is applicable given that both camera sensors have the same pixel density. Your examples of a small camera with a high pixel density and a larger camera with less pixel density is a bad example and is rarely encountered in the real world.

Kevin - Actually the main advantages of a Pro camera are not necessarily related to the number of pixels. The improved ruggedness, better metering and autofocus etc come to mind. Look at the pixel count of a £400 Canon 400D and a 1D MkIII - same number of pixels?!

As far as bird photography goes, having a large FOV of a 1ds is just not necessary because how often does a bird fill the frame? Here pixel density is probably more important. But weigh that against the shelf life of a 1ds in a Pro's hands taking millions of pictures a year in dusty, then wet climates and being dropped all the time?

Keith - I cant quite work out what you are implying? Are you against this maths? I couldnt agree more about other skills necessary to achieve great photo's, but thats not how this thread started. If I have misinterpreted, accept my apologies!
 
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