Need best large scope head. (1 Viewer)

I have a Leica Televid 82 and a Swarovski 80 HD here and I'm going to choose between the two. The Zeiss didn't get a call because I wanted wide angle views not 75x, but otherwise I bet the latest Diascopes are awesome. I'm still doing side by side testing with the Leica and Swarovski. They're really close in what counts.

So one of the things that's come up is how critical the head is. I bought a Gitzo GH1720 which isn't even coming close to cutting it. With an 80mm-class scope, there's way too much flex. When I try to center something in the field, it just moves and bounces back even at the lowest friction setting. Gitzo rates this head for 4kg, and these scopes are less than 2kg. To be fair, I think that's a maximum load rating and Gitzo does describe the GH1720 that it's for "compact" birding scopes. I wish they had been more specific.

I previously had a Manfrotto 401 Junior Geared Head. That head was solid and the gears were perfect for centering something in the field, but the whole action was a little too slow and took too many hands so I went looking for fluid heads.

I tried a Manfrotto 701HDV head but without a scope on it. It seemed smooth but I couldn't tell how much it would flex. It wasn't anywhere near as petite as the Gitzo GH1720. I thought I was going to get away with that, but precise pointing is critical to me, more than ultra-light weight.

Leica rebrands the Gitzo G2180, another 4kg head for their scopes. Swarovski has a head that appears to be their own manufacture.

Should I get the G2180, the heavier GH2720, the Swarovski head, or something else?

My tripod is a Manfrotto 3001BPRO. I've had this for a camera for years and it seems about right for the scope. With an 80-class scope, I'm not going for ultra-light but I do pack this to the field almost daily.

Advice is appreciated. Thanks

I have a Gitzo GH2720. Vertical movement is nice and fluid, but horizontal movement is less than ideal. Its horizontal panning behavior might match your description of the 1720, but I would call it sticky rather than flexing. On the other hand it's plenty stable enough for any large birding scope. I also use a Gitzo 2380 fluid head which is much heavier, but has superior fluid motions.

Do avoid the Gitzo 2180 and the Swarovski FH101. Both proved to be very vibration prone in a Dutch test.
Apart from the models mentioned by Henry, the Manfrotto 701HDV has been well received on this forum.
Another alternative would be the Manfrotto 128LP (the one without the RC quick-release system, which itself is responsible for vibrations due to the rubber mating surface). You could then attach an Arca Swiss-type clamp from Kirk, Markins, or Really Right Stuff with a matching QR plate with anti-rotation video pin.
I recently acquired a Berlebach 552 video head, which is lightweght and truly excellent.
It may, however, be difficult to obtain in the US and the downside is a price of €400.

John

Another alternative would be the Manfrotto 128LP (the one without the RC quick-release system, which itself is responsible for vibrations due to the rubber mating surface).

Click to expand...

I think in that case it's not the rubber of the 128RC adding vibration but the cork of the 128LP damping the vibration. In the both have the same amplitude of vibration but the LP damps out quicker.

A couple of tvgl.nl links but not the one I was looking for (the one with the blub photos of a light spot that showed the vibration graphically).

http://translate.google.com/transla...=6LP&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns

http://translate.google.com/transla...=6LP&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns

The issue with the 128RC and 128LP is they don't do any spring balance of the scope so if you tilt a fair amount up or down your really need a sliding plate to rebalance the scope. So a 128LP + 357 plate adapter (the same plate system as on the 701HDV) might be a decent choice. But John really doesn't like Manfrotto QR systems but it all depends on how much money you have invested in a system.

I'd also check out the reviews of the 701HDV. Folks here, like Horukuru seem happy with it and have all manner of stuff perched on it (the not light EDG 85mm + camera adaptor + Nikon DSLR + mic).

I've not used one myself but the spring balance in my 701RC2 helps.

Kevin,

It's the Manfrotto 323(RC) system I don't like. No misgivings about the 357, except that it's one of five different Manfrotto QR systems , which are not mutually compatible. Gitzo also have three different systems, so I think it would be better if everyone standardized on Arca Swiss.
The very thin layer of cork on the 128LP achieves friction with very little compliance. If there's no compliance at an interface, it won't be a source of vibration.

John

If money is not a problem go for the bigger Gitzo. If not you really can not go far wrong with a Manfrotto 128.

benm said:

I have a Leica Televid 82 and a Swarovski 80 HD here and I'm going to choose between the two. (...)
So one of the things that's come up is how critical the head is. (...)
With an 80mm-class scope, there's way too much flex. When I try to center something in the field, it just moves and bounces back even at the lowest friction setting. (...)
precise pointing is critical to me, more than ultra-light weight. (...)
Should I get the G2180, the heavier GH2720, the Swarovski head, or something else?
My tripod is a Manfrotto 3001BPRO. I've had this for a camera for years and it seems about right for the scope. (...)

Click to expand...

Televid 82, Swarovski 80 HD - you're looking for the best no-compromise high-quality solution, don't you? You are absolutely right: To exploit the potential of these alpha scopes you need a rock-solid tripod head: The Manfrotto 128 LP might be sufficient if you remove the cork plate and add an ARCA-style quick-release system. Other recommendations written above seem also sensible, especially the better Gitzos and Berlebachs. Sorry I cannot comment on this because I prefer a ballhead under my scope.

But I can comment on your tripod: The Bogen 3001 / Manfrotto 190 is definitely too unstable and vibration-prone for a large scope with magnifications above 30x, especially in windy conditions and for a discerning user! I had the steadier Manfrotto 055 (= Bogen 3021) and even without the center column (which I replaced by a plain metal plate) it was still too shaky. (This is not only my personal opinion, see e.g. http://www.tvwg.nl/testrapporten/statieven/statieven.htm.)

A better head than your current specimen will solve only a part of your problem. I really think you need an adequate tripod also, e.g. a two-section Berlebach Report or a large carbon Gitzo or Feisol, if possible without center column. I by myself upgraded to a Feisol CT-3372 and could not be happier. The difference not only to the old Manfrotto, but also to Gitzo 1 series, Giottos, Benros, smaller Feisols and even three-section Berlebachs is amazing.

Thanks for the advice. I've kept the 80 HD and I'm going to try the FH101 with Swarovski's rail system. I did see the Dutch test thanks to the link. If it doesn't work out I will try either the larger Gitzo or Manfrotto.

The reason my 3001 is working is because I only extend one or two legs in most of my observing. With the legs collapsed, I set them at a wide angle. With one extension, at the narrower angle (this is sitting height). For full standing height, it is inadaquate but I am usually sitting on the ground or in a chair.

I tried the Swarovski FH101 head with and without the telescope rail. I can comment on the rail quickly so I will start with that. It is very nicely made but only serves to rebalance the scope on the head when there is a substantial camera attached (such as when using a TLS800 and a DSLR). For visual use, it does not provide any additional stability because although it cradles the scope in three places compared to the mount ring's single attachment, the rail itself still attaches to the head with only a small mount plate. This would have been easy to determine had Swarovski detailed the product on their website, but they only describe it with three vague sentences. Overall, their website provides paltry detail of anything at all and I find it terrible.

The FH101 head's fluid movements are much better than the Gitzo GH1720 I tried but it is prone to vibration and does a poor job of damping the vibration. I was able to move the scope at high magnification to center objects without the object bouncing out of center after I released the handle. In this respect it was adaquate but not perfect. The closest to perfect in this respect that I've tried is a geared head.

The FH101 has pan and tilt locks. The tilt lock is very annoying because it invariably moves the scope everytime I lock it. I center an object, lock it, and the object disappears out of the field. I have to overshoot the object, stop, and locking it will bring it back to something close to center if I guessed right. Since I use the scope at high angles a lot, I need the lock for more than just preventing the scope from falling when I set it aside for storage. To keep the scope steady at a high angle, I either need to lock the tilt or crank up the tilt friction. If I crank up the friction, the fluidity of movement is affected so this just does not work.

Panning is nice.

The fast mount system works nicely. I can indeed attach the scope to the head with one hand. The quick-release also has a safety which works well. How much vibration does this system introduce that a bolt-down plate would avoid? I don't know, but the overall vibration in the head is too much.

My whole rig is too jiggly. If I isolate the scope and head from tripod vibrations I can evaluate just what the head and scope attachment are causing. I see quite a bit but what is more disturbing is how long it takes for the vibrations to be dampened. Vibration in visual observing is quite tolerable if it dampens out quickly. We sacrafice rock-solid stability of a concrete pier mount for portability. It's going to vibrate, but we need it to dampen out quickly so if we touch the scope to focus and take our hand away, the scope does not continue to vibrate long afterward spoiling the view.

I am taking the many good suggestions I received here and the tests in the link to consider my options. The scope is 3.6 pounds and intended for field use, so a 3 pound Arca Swiss mount and 7 pound Berlebach tripod might be stable but they make for quite a load on the shoulder. I want to try the Gitzo 2720 and 2780. The 2380 comes commended by Henry and the Dutch tests but 3 pounds is a lot for what I'm mounting. Also, the 701HDV is interesting. I believe Zeiss is rebranding this for the diascopes now.

I have the Manfrotto 701 HDV and find it pretty good for my Kowa TSN4 77mm scope. However I tried a friend's Manfrotto 501 and that was much better,steadier but bigger',more expensive,heavier, but not too much so. He was using it to support a Canon 1D4 with a 500mm F4 IS lens, so should be OK for a 2KG scope!

The Benro C-257m8 carbon fibre tripod, and Manfrotto 128RC head work with the Zeiss 85 for me. IMO, heavier tripods and heads than this are overkill for birding with this category of scope.

Mike

the gitzo 1720 is very good for 65mm scopes

I have a Fiesol 3301 and a Manfrotto HDV501 for a Pentax PF80ED and the whole set up is rock solid with smooth pans and tilts. Definitely better than the ball head on the 3301 combo I used earlier. The 501HDV is slightly on the heavier side but the scope movements are silky smooth now but I think a slightly heavier head is very important for smooth panning, tilt and strong locking functions.