[Peewit]

Originally Posted by jurek

Release males on Manx and females in Ireland.

Originally Posted by jurek

On a serious note, supporters of non-lethal methods might do something - feeders with contraceptive would be good start.

Hi Jurek

Going slightly array here with other rodent species

I worked in the Oil Industry for a while in Scotland, and the buildings that where used by the workforce where plagued by wild rabbits.

The rabbits where causing structural damage to the buildings, and the car park areas. It was a Health and safety issue, as it was important not to allow any damage to the grass banks surrounding the buildings. This was simply the nature of the industry that made it important for structural buildings to be secure.

The solution was to gas the rabbits once a year. A quick and effective method to keep the rabbit population in check. It seemed to work to a point

Obviously Grey Squirrels do not dig burrows, but the point I am putting across here has been drastic measures taken to keep the rabbit population in check in this case as cases go for human safety. Human safety does not involve protecting other animals sadly.

Yes, maybe feeders with contraceptive would be good start as long as the same food does not harm the birds/wildlife.
I know you get Grey Squirrel feeders on the market. Maybe they could be re-designed for this purpose to stop increase in the Grey Squirrels population.

Maybe it is pipe dreams and waffle here.

So many issues to think about here and I can see this thread going for a while yet. Of course there could be the petition bit to be exposed yet?. Just a thought.

[jurek]

Surely people accustomed to grey squirrels will find red squirrel just as cute?

About prioritising - could animal lovers prioritise to help animals which don't damage nature's biodiversity? And don't harm red squirrels?

Lots can be done for animals without destroying global environment more. Birds get poisoned, animals die on motorways, fish get overfished etc. etc.

[Peewit]

Originally Posted by Alan Seaton

I'd be pleased if they would contact me because I am certainly happy to provide my resources for this cause in whatever way I can.

Hi Alan

I hope that you do not think I was ignoring you. Sorry if you did. I would love to give some of my happily earned taxes to the cause.

Originally Posted by Farnboro John

Interesting that in the face of actual evidence of effective culling the bunny huggers still say it can't be made effective.

Also interesting that the newspaper hasn't got anyone bright enough to see that a multi-track approach - oral contraceptives in non-Red Squirrel areas i.e. nearly all of mainland Britain - combined with killing, would be effective and would not expose Reds to the contraceptive.

Plus the expected mention that Reds damage trees and predate nests as do Greys. Nobody was denying it - just preferring native Reds to invading Greys!

Get on with the cull asap, or it will be too late and the softy lobby will be crying cos the Reds are all gone.

John

Hi John sorry if I appeared to be ignoring you along with Alan. I was a bit rude.

I agree that there is no soft option, and no short cuts just simple, straight forward 'eradication' and that is the way to deal with it. It does not need to be so in the public eye but done behind the scenes as such. People in this country are animal lovers, but are sadly mislead at times to know what animals to love.
Some education would be beneficial to them. A few grim pictures of the Red Squirrels with Pox would be a wake up call to them. Give the public a wake up call and get them believing in the cause. (maybe)

We cannot get rid of broad leaved trees that suit the Greys (more than Reds) love living in as it is ineffective to the environment.
It is although the Grey's have turned into town dwellers and become people friendly, and Reds has remained wild and shy and want to live away form people.

How different are they with their dwellings, and that they are related species. Just needs some logical thinking here for the Reds.

Originally Posted by Alan Seaton

As someone who lives in Northumberland I can only applaud the efforts of those engaged in the cull. I am however amazed at the number of grey squirrels involved, since the county was entirely free of greys only a few years ago.

It is the very existence of the grey squirrel that is the problem and they are moving into new areas, wiping out reds through population expansion. How anyone can think that it is in any way solving the problem to trap them alive to release elsewhere beats me. They would just displace more greys back into the depopulated area. Wasted effort at best, criminally neglecting the existence of the reds at worst.

It's the same as trying to push water uphill.

Hi Alan

Yes water uphill, is an apt way too express your thoughts here. To think that Greys have invaded your home area is mind boggling in the short period of time that they have

What you say does hit home very hard. Not enough action in time in assisting the Reds in their plight to survive, and allowing the Grey's to spread over areas they never have done so before.

In Scotland there is so much land which is free of human population (no people feeding Grey's too) and many more conifer plantations which suit the Reds. The Reds are in relative safety, and will be able to live in harmony away from the Grey's. Reds live in conifers and Grey's in Broadleaved areas. Divided they stand. So much better all round.

[quote=jurek;1116716]Surely people accustomed to Grey squirrels will find red squirrel just as cute?

QUOTE]

Hi Jurek: Exactly. Do you remember the way that 'Tufty' the Red Squirrel was used as a 'character' to teach young kids road sense all those years ago (Giving my age away here) Yes there was a Tufty club.
Cute pictures and cartoon characters of a Red Squirrel talking road sense to all young children.
It was the association of a cute Red Squirrel that got kids attention first and foremost. It did me, and I loved being in the Tufty Club

Not saying we do this publicity stunt for the Reds. It is setting the boundaries and making like so much easier for the Reds. Easier, meaning planting extensive conifer/native trees that they love as their food source (mentioned in the link). Just making things a bit harder for the Grey's,

It makes the Grey's more exploitable, because their eating habits are a lot different from the Reds. ...and so these thoughts ramble on here full of many wishes for things to change now and not in 10 years time

[Amarillo]

Originally Posted by Peewit

It does not need to be so in the public eye but done behind the scenes as such.

Hmmm. How do you do it away from the public eye when there are grey squirrels in almost every suburban garden and city park across England?

People in this country are animal lovers, but are sadly mislead at times to know what animals to love.
Some education would be beneficial to them. A few grim pictures of the Red Squirrels with Pox would be a wake up call to them. Give the public a wake up call and get them believing in the cause. (maybe)

Unfortunately the majority of the public don't understand that sometimes animals need to be killed in the name of conservation. Yes, an information campaign could be run, but there would still be massive uproar.

Realistically, all that can be done is continuous culling around the areas where reds still live.

[jurek]

BTW, red squirrels beg for peanuts in most city parks in the Continent. Are they shy in Britain?

[Peewit]

Originally Posted by jurek

BTW, red squirrels beg for peanuts in most city parks in the Continent. Are they shy in Britain?

Really oh well just shows how different everywhere is. I would imagine if they are looked after by some people as a growing concern, they will be less shy of people.

They where shy in Scotland. They feed from my peanut feeders, and made themselves unavailable, when I appeared outside. Just scuttled off as fast as they could.

They seem more timid in the UK. Unless someone knows different here.

Hi Armillo

Sorry Overlooked you as in a rush to go out here now

What would you suggest would be the best way to resolve the issues of the Grey Squirrels. It is a hard one to answer?

[Barred Wobbler]

They aren't tame by any means in the woods around me, but I wouldn't say they were timid either. If you go quietly you can often see them scraping around on the ground or scampering up a tree, where they will sit while you watch them from only a few yards. My avatar shows one taken hand-held with my Panasonic FZ50, range about 7-8 m. Not untypical.

They are also territorial and curious. On occasion I've been sitting quietly on a wooded river bank fishing and a squirrel upon noticing me has come crashing through the branches to hang only a few metres away, giving me a good scolding for trespassing. Alternatively, I've also called them in by standing in a likely spot in a wood and making a chattering noise with my tongue against the roof of my mouth. Any nearby squirrel will come to check out the interloper.

[kingwolf]

Greys and red's dont acctually compete it is the Pox virus which the greys carry that is the reason for the decline in red numbers, so a cure for that would be more beneficial in the long run really as would involve no termination of life.

However I think the reds could be so badly battered that they will need there to be some sort of control placed on greys to give them a hand to get back into it (I know I said no direct compertiton but there will likely be some effect over food). Also the British timber industry needs Grey Squirrels controlled as they damage trees quite freely even plenty of other food aout.

Education wise - i think it will be very difficult to get people on side for the control of Greys - look at the Hedgehogs in Scotland for an example. You will get the animal rights lobby banging on about it and they will prob go and release a few more for the sheer hell of it!!

Therefore the solution as I see it is to carry on controling Greys on the edge of the territory's and possible increase the grey free buffer's around red squriell strong holds. And small scale where they are causing particular damage (game keepers being encouraged to shoot them etc) Can we not send Prince Harry and his chums after them perhaps? but the cost and scale of shooting 3 MILLION greys is to much for any organisation to support or condon realisticly.

[Barred Wobbler]

I'd shoot them for free.

Passenger Pigeons, anybody?

[kingwolf]

But you live in Northumberland and can see the demise of the Reds. Think about the communter belt around London - where those nice fluffy greys bring joy to people's lives!! even if they damage the woodland's and birds around them they wont want to hear of Game Keepers on the local estate shooting them.

[Amarillo]

Originally Posted by Peewit

Hi Armillo

Sorry Overlooked you as in a rush to go out here now

What would you suggest would be the best way to resolve the issues of the Grey Squirrels. It is a hard one to answer?

culling on the edges of red strongholds, attempt to create buffer zones

as I've said near the beginning of this thread, I don't see it being feasible to eliminate greys from Britain. Though some would see it as being defeatist, I would rather see conservation resources used for more achievable goals, and ones which don't alienate conservation groups from the wider public.

Greys and red's dont acctually compete

Kingwolf, I think you're wrong. They do compete. The grey squirrels in Italy don't carry the virus and are still displacing reds.

I think the difference in tameness is simply down to the remaining reds in Britain being in less populated areas and less used to people. If there were no greys the reds would live in gardens and parks in Britain as they do on the continent and would be equally tame.

[DavidP]

Originally Posted by Amarillo

I think the difference in tameness is simply down to the remaining reds in Britain being in less populated areas and less used to people. If there were no greys the reds would live in gardens and parks in Britain as they do on the continent and would be equally tame.

They seem to be quite tame here but I think thats to do with feeding. The couple we have in the garden will happily feed off a feeder a few feet in front of you, although will scarper off if you make any sudden moves. A hide nearby on a reserve have tons of them and they get very close but I think thats due to the walnuts they leave out for them. They always seem to be very pugnacious when I go there and are constantly chasing each other around over the hazel stands. They seem much more numerous on the island than they were in the past.

[kingwolf]

Amarillo - They prefer different habitats and also feed upon different types of seed. Also the reason the Greys were brought over in the first place was "because they were tamer" not my words but a talk by the Save Our Squirrel staff!!

[apbarr]

I'm doing my bit, shot 3 at my feeders in the last week, if a million of us did that, problem solved

[ikw101]

Originally Posted by Amarillo

culling on the edges of red strongholds, attempt to create buffer zones .

So has anyone got any evidence that buffer zones and red squirrel reserves actually work?

Originally Posted by Amarillo

as I've said near the beginning of this thread, I don't see it being feasible to eliminate greys from Britain.

perhaps not but £5 per tail would do enough to prevent their range from expanding any further. Certainly beats cockle picking in Morecambe Bay

Originally Posted by Amarillo

Though some would see it as being defeatist, I would rather see conservation resources used for more achievable goals, and ones which don't alienate conservation groups from the wider public.

I would have thought that a species that is listed as:
Near threatened by the IUCN Red List, and listed under Appendix III of the Berne Convention.
Threatened in the UK, and protected under Schedules 5 and 6 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act.
should be a considerably higher priority for conservation resources than the
ever increasing high profile re-introductions of beavers, wolves and even White tailed Eagles.
Perhaps once it's extinct conservation resources can be spent on it's reintroduction?

Originally Posted by Amarillo

Kingwolf, I think you're wrong. They do compete. The grey squirrels in Italy don't carry the virus and are still displacing reds.

If the reds aren't a high enough priority now it's estimated that within the next 10 years the Grey's will gain a foothold into the the vast Alpine forests of central Europe.

Originally Posted by Amarillo

I think the difference in tameness is simply down to the remaining reds in Britain being in less populated areas and less used to people. If there were no greys the reds would live in gardens and parks in Britain as they do on the continent and would be equally tame.

Seems beyond belief that we'll all campaign to save the latest high profile creature on the other side of the world yet abandon one of our own to a seemingly inevitable fate. For more info see decline of the Red Squirrel

[Barred Wobbler]

Originally Posted by apbarr

I'm doing my bit, shot 3 at my feeders in the last week, if a million of us did that, problem solved

Keep it up.

Fortunately I've yet to see one in my village, let alone my garden. If they do turn up in the garden I'll be doing my best (legally of course) to see that they don't leave.



PS. In three earlier posts I've referred to passenger pigeons. This one is the fourth, yet nobody has commented.

Don't they fit the agenda? Aren't they an example (albeit in their case, misguided) of what can be done if the will is there?

[Bonsaibirder]

It's a good point Alan. Flocks used to darken the sky and they were mainly eliminated by shooting. Not sure how many other birds got caught up in it though.

Originally Posted by Alan Seaton

PS. In three earlier posts I've referred to passenger pigeons. This one is the fourth, yet nobody has commented.

Don't they fit the agenda? Aren't they an example (albeit in their case, misguided) of what can be done if the will is there?

[Farnboro John]

Originally Posted by Bonsaibirder

It's a good point Alan. Flocks used to darken the sky and they were mainly eliminated by shooting. Not sure how many other birds got caught up in it though.

They weren't just done over by shooting, nest colonies were battered out of trees with long poles, squabs shot in nests etc. But I agree its a good comparison, because this was a hugely numerous species in a continent, for goodness' sake, not a little island off the side of one.

Every birdwatcher shoudl be gunning down every Grey Squirrel at every feeder, and every other possible method should be employed countrywide. I still say using contraceptives say up to a line twenty miles from Red Squirrel areas - they could be put in squirrel feeders if nowhere else - would be a massively helpful adjunct to such a strategy, as would enlisting the hunting fraternity.

Those who say this isn't do-able are just wrong.

John

[Bonsaibirder]

Hi John,

Fortunately I rarely see Grey Squirrels but if I got them in my garden I wouldn't know where to start when it comes down to "gunning" them down! What are the legalities of doing this?

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Farnboro John

They weren't just done over by shooting, nest colonies were battered out of trees with long poles, squabs shot in nests etc. But I agree its a good comparison, because this was a hugely numerous species in a continent, for goodness' sake, not a little island off the side of one.

Every birdwatcher shoudl be gunning down every Grey Squirrel at every feeder, and every other possible method should be employed countrywide. I still say using contraceptives say up to a line twenty miles from Red Squirrel areas - they could be put in squirrel feeders if nowhere else - would be a massively helpful adjunct to such a strategy, as would enlisting the hunting fraternity.

Those who say this isn't do-able are just wrong.

John

[Farnboro John]

Originally Posted by Bonsaibirder

Hi John,

Fortunately I rarely see Grey Squirrels but if I got them in my garden I wouldn't know where to start when it comes down to "gunning" them down! What are the legalities of doing this?

Cheers,

The animals are vermin so enjoy only normal anti-cruelty protection, so shooting is legal at any time of the year.

No license is needed for an air rifle of suitable power. You are required to ensure there is no danger to the public from your use of the weapon (so there must be a suitable continuous backstop: don't use one in a back garden with only a hedge or chain-link fence!) No doubt others will have more to say on this but I have heard of various people chopping squirrels locally this way without demur from neighbours.

If you are serious, I suggest you practice first, use a telescopic sight and take head shots from as close as you can lure the squirrels. This will prevent you having to chase down wounded animals.

If you want to recycle, I believe recipes are available on the Internet though I haven't looked. I seem to recall an old book on British mammals having a squirrel recipe that finished: "...then dig a hole and bury it deep!" which may indicate palatability. But more likely they taste like chicken.

John

[Perdix]

Originally Posted by Farnboro John

The animals are vermin so enjoy only normal anti-cruelty protection, so shooting is legal at any time of the year.

No license is needed for an air rifle of suitable power. You are required to ensure there is no danger to the public from your use of the weapon (so there must be a suitable continuous backstop: don't use one in a back garden with only a hedge or chain-link fence!) No doubt others will have more to say on this but I have heard of various people chopping squirrels locally this way without demur from neighbours.

John

Continuing on from this, an air rifle of suitable power is one which does not require a firearms license (under 12ft/lbs of power), such as .22 and .177 calibre, .22 being most popular. Note that it is illegal to fire any pellet from an airgun onto land where you do not have permission to shoot, i.e. it is illegal to shoot a squirrel over your land boundaries. It is also illegal to fire any firearm within 50ft of the centre of any public road.

Note also if your neighbours are against you shooting squirrels that it is not advisable to shoot where you or your quarry are plainly in view - it does nothing for neighbourly relations.

I thouroughly recommend anybody interested further to contact BASC or a similar organisation first, for general info as well as safety tips. The following link is useful:

http://www.basc.org.uk/content/airriflepractice

As well as shooting cage trapping is a good method of grey control. Traps are much easier and practical in suburban areas as they are there when you are not and are more discreet. I brought a model similar to the one in the below link from the Midland Game Fair last August for about £10, and have trapped about 10 squirrels from the same spot since, using a fat ball as bait. Squirrels caught in this way are killed humanely with an air gun.

http://www.trapman.co.uk/rat-trap-mu...e-rat-trap.htm

Hope this is of interest.

[turkish van]

Originally Posted by Perdix

As well as shooting cage trapping is a good method of grey control. Traps are much easier and practical in suburban areas as they are there when you are not and are more discreet. I brought a model similar to the one in the below link from the Midland Game Fair last August for about £10, and have trapped about 10 squirrels from the same spot since, using a fat ball as bait. Squirrels caught in this way are killed humanely with an air gun.

http://www.trapman.co.uk/rat-trap-mu...e-rat-trap.htm

Hope this is of interest.

I might point out, before anyone rushes out to buy one, that it says quite clearly:

"Please note this trap is not suitable for live catching squirrels, other pest control companies sell this as a squirrel trap we do not. It was never designed to catch squirrel's "

[Mary Evelyn]

Originally Posted by Farnboro John

The animals are vermin so enjoy only normal anti-cruelty protection, so shooting is legal at any time of the year.

No license is needed for an air rifle of suitable power. You are required to ensure there is no danger to the public from your use of the weapon (so there must be a suitable continuous backstop: don't use one in a back garden with only a hedge or chain-link fence!) No doubt others will have more to say on this but I have heard of various people chopping squirrels locally this way without demur from neighbours.

If you are serious, I suggest you practice first, use a telescopic sight and take head shots from as close as you can lure the squirrels. This will prevent you having to chase down wounded animals.

If you want to recycle, I believe recipes are available on the Internet though I haven't looked. I seem to recall an old book on British mammals having a squirrel recipe that finished: "...then dig a hole and bury it deep!" which may indicate palatability. But more likely they taste like chicken.

John

Didn't really want to get involved in this sick thread.

Whatever your thoughts are regarding the grey squirrel,it isn't their fault but the fault of man for introducing them and you ought to remember that.The squirrel has no idea it is outdoing the red squirrel,it is simply fighting for survival like us all.

At least cull them in a way that does not bring about untold pain to the animal.People who cant fire guns properly wont kill quickly and encouraging people to do so is just so so stupid it's unreal.

Please can we have a bit of intelligence on this thread instead of a bunch of guys who are so hell bent on getting rid of the grey, they may use any means possible.

[Peewit]

Originally Posted by Mary Evelyn

Didn't really want to get involved in this sick thread.

Whatever your thoughts are regarding the grey squirrel,it isn't their fault but the fault of man for introducing them and you ought to remember that.The squirrel has no idea it is outdoing the red squirrel,it is simply fighting for survival like us all.

At least cull them in a way that does not bring about untold pain to the animal.People who cant fire guns properly wont kill quickly and encouraging people to do so is just so so stupid it's unreal.

Please can we have a bit of intelligence on this thread instead of a bunch of guys who are so hell bent on getting rid of the grey, they may use any means possible.

hi Mary

Not meaning to raise to angst here on the subject of Grey Squirrels. I am certainly not meaning to upset anyone but simply raising up the whole subject which is now becoming a big problem in the UK.

It is a fact that there are so many problems attached with the Grey's in the UK, and yes it is true they are man made. Man is the fault here not the Greys. Mary, you have hit the nail on the head in what you say and I do agree with you 100 per cent believe you me

The thing that worries me that there is more moral support needed for our Reds which are native to GB. To see a Red with Pox is so disheartening. They are not immune to Pox as the Grey's are.

I also feel annoyed, that I spend a fortune on Bird food to find 3 Grey's in my garden eating it like there is no tomorrow. It is so annoying to see this going on. I am not made of money either

Just my opinions, as you have yours too. Friends again I hope

[James Blake]

I think the ethical issues raised by situations like this are extremely complex.

For example, conservationists usually it for granted species that arrived somewhere under their own steam have a right to be there which ones that arrived by human agency do not.

This view can have value, yet there are strong arguments against it as well. If we accept that humans are part of nature (rather than being some other kind of entity, say the special creation of a god) then our actions are also part of nature; and that includes our habit of moving species around the world.

When examined closely, the apparently clear division between species that "naturally" belong somewhere and those that don't begins to look a lot fuzzier.

My own ethics lead me both to value the diversity of living things and also to reject the killing of humans or animals in any but the most extreme circumstances.

I value Britain's red squirrel population, but also value the enjoyment I get from watching the acrobatics of grey squirrels in the trees outside my office.

In terms of England and Wales, the pro-red actions I would like to see would be a bolstering of Anglesey and the Isle of Wight as red squirrel refuges; I would like to see the Anglesey greys relocated and a concerted campaign of reforestation in both places to create more habitat for both the squirrels and the whole range of woodland wildlife.

I know too little about the situation in Scotland to comment on that: though of course I have enjoyed watching reds in the Highlands immensely.

best wishes to all
James