[rokermartin]

Well i dont know whether this topic has been talked about before on the Birdforum. I am interested in the views of forum members about the subject. I think their are a lot of birders in the UK who are against using bird call tapes for seeing birds.It is certainly a easy way of seeing birds if you play a tape to attract them to you.I have been on numerous bird holidays and nearly all the leaders who i have been with use tapes to see birds such as Owls,Woodpeckers and many other bird species.I have had some excellent close up views of birds when the leaders have played tapes.A few years ago i was in Norway and the leader played a call of a Ptarmigan and within a few minutes a male Ptarmigan landed 10 feet away from us.The leaders who i have been with never over use the tapes and never cause stress to the birds by playing the tapes for to long.Once they have attracted the bird to the group they dont play the tape anymore after that.I was in Norfolk years ago and witnessed a bad thing.Their was a Thrush Nightingale in some very thick and dense Hawthorn scrub the bird was out of view but birders could hear it singing.So one birder decided he would try and attract it out my using a tape.The bird was getting very stressed out by the tape going for 5 mins or so.And the bird did'nt even show well.Birders just got very brief views of it.Personally i think tapes are alright as long as they are not over used and dont cause stress to the birds,but certainly would'nt think about using a tape for eg on a breeding site which could disturb and cause stress to breeding birds.

[KnockerNorton]

Scientists use them all the time, and few problems have been encountered if they are used with common sense. Most birds will lose interest quite quickly anyway, after a few minutes, and you will often get little response at certain times of year, depending on the annual cycle. If you stand there for half an hour, blasting out a tape, it's not a good idea. But used for a few minutes to check presence/get an i.d. isn't going to do any harm in most cases. Calling down migrants to unsuitable areas is questionable, or harassing migrants at the coast. But ringers use tape lures a lot, except in the breeding season.

[J. Moore]

I do not know if there is a British equivalent, but the American Birding Association code of ethics states regarding use of recordings:

"To avoid stressing birds or exposing them to danger, exercise restraint and caution during observation, photography, sound recording, or filming.

Limit the use of recordings and other methods of attracting birds, and never use such methods in heavily birded areas, or for attracting any species that is Threatened, Endangered, or of Special Concern, or is rare in your local area;"

I think the big problem comes in heavily birded areas, or where a bird difficult to see is known to be in a particular area. Those situations present the potential for multiple birders to be playing recordings of the same bird on a frequent basis over an extended period. If that happens, the playing of recordings may seriously disrupt the bird's natural behavior. It may even be driven off thinking too many competitors are present, or it may waste so much time responding to tape recorded calls that it interferes with breeding activity or rearing young. Playing of any tape recorded calls is now banned in some heavily birded areas in southeast Arizona, for example.

Jim

[jurek]

This thread is knocking around for years...

Basically, one or few uses of tape makes no disturbance. However, most sites in Britain and many birding spots abroad are daily visited and combined pressure by tens or thousands of people would be unacceptable.

So I have little problem in sensibly done taping if birder is sure that he/she is the only one taping the bird in the season. Ptarmigan at randomly selected roadside in Norway is an example. I wouldnt do it the same in well known birding spot - e.g. site in Norway mentioned in trip reports.

[Xenospiza]

Playing a tape of a small owl at night in an area full of Tawny Owls may well lead to that small owl being provoked to call – and then being snatched.
I personally do not like tape-luring at all (I get more stressed than those birds I guess), and my attempts at luring Middle Spotted Woodpeckers (to find new territories, not to twitch them) failed miserably. I've seen a few lured birds, and in areas with very few visitors or with very impopular birds I guess it's not a real problem. But incessant tape-luring at a breeding site of some rarity is stupid, and of course this may happen when such a bird is twitchable.
There is some evidence from the Dutch dunes that sustained ringing during the breeding season can lead to lower numbers of breeding birds — most likely because of the tape-luring.

[rokermartin]

I can remember i did a birdwatching holiday to see the Cranes,Owls and Woodpeckers in the Lake Horngorga area ,Sweden years ago.And the target birds were Eagle, Pygmy,Tengmalm's Owls and Black Woodpecker to name but a few.We had a excellent local Swedish birder called Christer Larsson,one of the best birders i have meet.Christer did'nt use tapes at all, he had a incredible knack of using his voice to attract the birds.We went to a Black Woodpecker site and Christer demonstrated his Black Woodpecker call and within 5 mins of him doing the call we were watching a Black Woodpecker 12 ft or so away from us.One evening we went into a forest and Christer heard a Tengmalm'sOwl calling in the distance he then started to do his Tengmalm's call and after 10 mins the owl got closer and it flew over our heads and landed in a pine tree just a few feet away from us,not long after that we heard a Pygmy Owl in another part of the forest and Christer did his Pygmy call and after a few minutes it appeared and we had excellent views of that perched in a tree.Went to a Eagle Owl nest site in a working quarry the following evening and had excellent views of a pair of Eagle Owls.Christer did'nt attempt to do a EO call he said it would be a bit to dangerous to do it as we would have been attacked.Just goes to show tapes are not the only way to attract birds.

[Farnboro John]

I don't think you can differentiate between using a tape and imitating a bird - the objective is the same and the technique is the same, you just get an extra kick from being able to imitate accurately enough to fool the bird. Is that sufficient justification? Not on its own. So you have to come back to the ethical question, and quite honestly the answer to that is use your common sense - as you can see from the comments above.

John

[gyrfalcon]

Originally Posted by rokermartin

Christer did'nt attempt to do a EO call he said it would be a bit to dangerous to do it as we would have been attacked.

A chance went begging there

[deborah4]

Originally Posted by Farnboro John

I don't think you can differentiate between using a tape and imitating a bird - the objective is the same and the technique is the same, you just get an extra kick from being able to imitate accurately enough to fool the bird. Is that sufficient justification? Not on its own. So you have to come back to the ethical question, and quite honestly the answer to that is use your common sense - as you can see from the comments above.

John

I certainly agree with this. Unfortunately common sense is not always adhered to. In the case of Pymy Owl calls, I have witnessed to my stress, imitation Pygmy calls being used repeatedly and incessantly over the period of many many hours in an attempt to spot forest birds (not Pygmy, that had already been seen). Pygmy Owls are notorious hunters of small birds, everything flushes and ''appears'' simply out of panic at the call of Pygmies. To me, it was totally unethical to use the call of a hunter in order to scare birds into visibility/vocal stress. Particularly as in the interim minutes, the birder was talking loudly into a mobile phone, chatting to friends and tramping through undergrowth! The worst kind of fieldcraft in my view. Anyone who can whistle can easily imitate a Pygmy Owl - it's no great brainer but this doesn't mean it should be used so excessively.

[BirderoftheNorth]

It is an area in which there is a TON of gray, for me anyway.

I don't think tapes should be used in particular situations, as in overplayed to attract a rarity. Or in areas where certain birds are exposed to tapes a lot. In some parts of Florida, I do not think they should play Mangrove Cuckoo tapes.

[rokermartin]

Originally Posted by deborah4

I certainly agree with this. Unfortunately common sense is not always adhered to. In the case of Pymy Owl calls, I have witnessed to my stress, imitation Pygmy calls being used repeatedly and incessantly over the period of many many hours in an attempt to spot forest birds (not Pygmy, that had already been seen). Pygmy Owls are notorious hunters of small birds, everything flushes and ''appears'' simply out of panic at the call of Pygmies. To me, it was totally unethical to use the call of a hunter in order to scare birds into visibility/vocal stress. Particularly as in the interim minutes, the birder was talking loudly into a mobile phone, chatting to friends and tramping through undergrowth! The worst kind of fieldcraft in my view.

Yes i agree that birders should'nt imitate calls or play tapes of hunting birds to cause stress to other birds.My friend was on a bird holiday to America a few years ago and he said the leader played the call of a Eastern Screech Owl,the leader said quite often when other birds hear ESO calling they go to mob it.So my friend said when the leader played the tape numerous birds came to where they were. He said the leader played the call for a couple of mins then stopped and he did'nt play it anymore after that.But the call must have caused some stress to the birds making them think that there was a Owl about.

[gyrfalcon]

I think the line being drawn is getting way to subtle here.. who is to say that the tape of a passerine singing, played at a slightly abnormally high volume doesn't terrify the other males within earshot more than a predator call?
I think you are either "in" or "out". No exceptions, disclaimers or caveats.

[deborah4]

Originally Posted by rokermartin

My friend was on a bird holiday to America a few years ago and he said the leader played the call of a Eastern Screech Owl,the leader said quite often when other birds hear ESO calling they go to mob it.So my friend said when the leader played the tape numerous birds came to where they were. ... the call must have caused some stress to the birds making them think that there was a Owl about.

Yes that was much the same reasons. Many guides work for small companies or for themselves. Unfortunately tourist birders (ie. anyone that books an overseas guide) expect to see the key birds that are 'sold' in the package. This puts pressure on guides to come up with the goods. A good guide IMO should always be honest up front about the likely hood of seeing rare birds and certainly not use unethical methods that stress birds in order to 'protect' or 'enhance' his reputation and thus his profits.

The difficulty is trip birders understandingly have 'targets' and are more list orientated than they might be at home as time is short and they are wanting good returns for their investment - this inadvertently perhaps puts added pressure on the guide but it's a pressure he/she should resist. And it's a 'demand' that visiting birders shouldn't make. It was very stressful indeed to see birds in a complete panic every few minutes over 20 miles of forest birding, including an extremely stressed female Black Woodie that he missed completely. In the end I just walked away. I had more luck than he did, with walking quietly, stopping, listening and keeping eyes on red alert!

[Pinewood]

Originally Posted by deborah4

I had more luck than he did, with walking quietly, stopping, listening and keeping eyes on red alert!

Hello Deborah,

Is that not what bird watching is supposed to be, rather than the headlong accumulation of a list?

Incidentally, in the States, hardly anyone uses tapes anymore, as most folks have gone digital. I saw one Central Park guide with an iPod hooked to a portable amplifier but he seemed to have switched back to doing his own calling. At the time, he was standing on the other side of a large rock and caused distress among other bird watchers trying to find the calling bird, only to discover it was a recording!

Happy bird watching,
Arthur

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by gyrfalcon

I think you are either "in" or "out". No exceptions, disclaimers or caveats.

I have seen examples where birders who are totally against the use of tapes will instead spend many hours wandering repeatedly through fragile habitat, perhaps even booting a few bushes in desperate search of their target, causing untold damage and seriously disrupting the normal routines of countless birds.

In such cases it must surely be preferable to use a tape sparingly, hopefully enjoy a quick look, and then swiftly depart and leave the birds alone (with of course the usual provisos about vulnerable species, frequently visited sites etc.).

Richard

[deborah4]

Originally Posted by Pinewood

Hello Deborah,

Is that not what bird watching is supposed to be, rather than the headlong accumulation of a list?

Happy bird watching,
Arthur

Hi Arthur

Like everything in life, perhaps it's simply a question of balance rather than any having any pre-conceived notions of what bird watching is ''supposed to be''. Listing generates it's own momentum, it can be increasingly addictive for borderline obsessives . When it comes to the point that the desire to see/list rare birds overrides general bird welfare and wider consideration for the environment, it's time to get some therapy perhaps

As Richard implies, it's not just excessive use of taped/imitated calls that can have a detrimental effect - I know birders who wouldn't think twice about tramping over vulnerable habitat to see rare ground nesting birds in the breeding season just because they want it on their 'list'.

The 'common sense' approach IMV implies a respectful awareness of whole habitat and it's occupants, including the flora and smaller vertebrates that can be trampled underfoot in order to chase that elusive woodland species. It's an approach that should be constantly making 'mini-environmental impact assessments' every step of the way.

[bedfontbirder]

Personally I always prefer to use my field skills to find a particular bird, but I can see certain instances when use of tape luring in everyday birding can have its merits. In The Gambia for instance my guide used tapes to bring in some of the more secretive warblers etc.

Cheers,

Adam

[gyrfalcon]

Originally Posted by bedfontbirder

Personally I always prefer to use my field skills to find a particular bird, but I can see certain instances when use of tape luring in everyday birding can have its merits. In The Gambia for instance my guide used tapes to bring in some of the more secretive warblers etc.

Cheers,

Adam

No one is saying it doesn't work!.. more a question of "Is the birder seeing the bird more important than the perceived stress and disturbance to the bird?"

But, as has been pointed out by Deborah4 above, there is more to it than tapes.. perhaps birders should use a more holistic approach, taking into consideration disturbance at all levels. No point making a conscious decision to not using tapes then proceeding to cause even more disruption. (which incidentally sounds complete bonkers.. tell us more about these Birders Richard!)