[macshark]

This was taken today (March 9) near Shoreline lake. I have not seen this bird before. They were hanging out inside the bushes, next to a gang of white crowned sparrows. The size was smaller than the sparrows but about twice as big as an Anna's hummingbird that was close by. Couldn't find any matches in the Sibley book. Any pointers would be appreciated!

[AlexC]

Hey Macshark,

I believe your bird is a female Bushtit - although I will say that as I'm not super-familiar with either species, I did pause for a bit to consider Wrentit. Some westerners could probably give you better ID tips on differenciating the two than myself.

[joannec]

Looks good for bushtit to me too. They do hang around in small groups.

[jthoppes]

I agree that this looks like a Bushtit. It is amazing just how difficult it can be to separate these two from an isolated photograph like this. In the field the rule of thumb that "Twelve birds flying in a group are Bushtits; one bird invisible in the chaparral is a Wrentit" works as well as anything else.

On actual plumage, this bird is very dark above and palest on the chest. Which is fine for Bushtit; Wrentits usually show even darkness, with the typical pattern being gray above and reddish-brown below. Whereas this bird shows a rich brown color on the crown and mottled grayish underneath. Again: Bushtit.

[jthoppes]

Here is a Wrentit. Note that the cheek and crown are the grayest parts of an otherwise reddish-brown bird.

And here's a Bushtit. The crown is the brownest part of an otherwise grayish bird. Note the suggestion of a pale wing panel in the same place as in your photograph. (Which is by the way an excellent shot of a notoriously hyperactive bird.)

[goshawk227]

Bushtit for me as well.

[macshark]

Thanks for all the help!

The bird in the picture is clearly carrying a string of spider silk, probably building a nest. However, this doesn't help much as further reading indicates both bushtits and wrentits use spider silk to bind their nests.

The "latte" eye color of the bird in the picture doesn't help much either as this falls in between the typical dark and light eye colors described for bushtits and wrentits. On the other hand, female bushtits are described as having lighter colored eyes, so maybe Alex's ID is spot on...

There were only two of these birds (not a large group) and they were hanging out mostly inside the bushes, so I couldn't get any other decent shots. I am not sure if this is a behavioral indication for wrentit as I was only able to observe these birds for about a minute before they disappeared...

After reviewing all the other pictures and info on the web, I am almost inclined to say the bird in the original picture is a wrentit, though this puts me 1-against-4 in terms of ID suggestions on this thread and I have zero experience identifying this type of bird. On the other hand, I found a few other pictures on the web (on Birdforum galleries and a few public photo galleries of SF Bay Area photographers) that look just like this one and has been identified as bushtit.

I'll dig through my other (blurry) shots tonight and see if I can find any that has more features visible to help with ID. Until then, I will go with the recommendation of the majority of the posts on this thread and classify this one as a bushtit.

[Gentoo]

Trying to ID these two from photos alone can be extremely hard even for those of us familiar with them. Since you saw the bird macshark, I will ask you about it. Were the birds vocal at all? Bushtits constantly give high lisping calls and chatter. Wrentits when not singing give low guttural or croaking calls. Bushtits should be just about the size or perhaps a little larger than an Anna's Hummingbird as it is large for a hummer.

Given as well that they were only as a pair (Bushtits are almost always in flocks, sometimes loose flocks spread out into several bushes). Wrentits are almost always in pairs. Depending on what you can remember about any vocalizations, right now my guess is tentatively on Wrentit.

[JANJ]

Bushtit.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread....hlight=bushtit

JanJ

[joannec]

Hi Macshark

Interesting thread. I am trying to learn western North American species following a trip to Oregon and California last summer. Just for interest here is a picture of bushtits I took in Oregon. There were about 10 of them hanging around my sisters garden.

[macshark]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

Trying to ID these two from photos alone can be extremely hard even for those of us familiar with them. Since you saw the bird macshark, I will ask you about it. Were the birds vocal at all? Bushtits constantly give high lisping calls and chatter. Wrentits when not singing give low guttural or croaking calls. Bushtits should be just about the size or perhaps a little larger than an Anna's Hummingbird as it is large for a hummer.

Given as well that they were only as a pair (Bushtits are almost always in flocks, sometimes loose flocks spread out into several bushes). Wrentits are almost always in pairs. Depending on what you can remember about any vocalizations, right now my guess is tentatively on Wrentit.

Thanks!

Based on the information you provided, I would be leaning toward Wrentit now. They were a pair, I did not see any other members of the flock around. They were also much larger than an Anna's hummingbird. Looks like Bushtits are very small (7-8cm) whereas Wrentits are substantially larger (14-15cm). Wrentit size matches better with what I obvserved.

[Gentoo]

If they were much larger than an Anna's Hummingbird then they certainly were not Bushtits! I'm assuming that you didn't hear any vocalizations which, if they were Bushtits would have been obvious and high pitched lisping sounds. The Wrentits vocalizations are not only much lower and guttural but are not audible at any distance more than about 10 feet or so.

Based on your further information, this is a Wrentit to me.

[J. Moore]

Originally Posted by macshark

Thanks!

Based on the information you provided, I would be leaning toward Wrentit now. They were a pair, I did not see any other members of the flock around. They were also much larger than an Anna's hummingbird. Looks like Bushtits are very small (7-8cm) whereas Wrentits are substantially larger (14-15cm). Wrentit size matches better with what I obvserved.

I hate to throw a dissenting voice into this emerging consensus, but the photo of the subject bird looks virtually identical to the photo of a bird identified as an adult female coastal Bushtit in my National Wildlife Federation Field Guide to Birds of North America. You can even see the exact same pattern of reflection on the wing and tail feathers. (Though based on the drawings in Sibley and National Geographic I would have gone with Wrentit).

I have only seen Bushtits (in Arizona), but they strike me as bigger than what is being suggested here. The field guides list their length as 11.5 cm versus 16.5 cm for a Wrentit. I would compare them in size to a chickadee; I definitely think of them as being bulkier than an Anna's Hummingbird. (The field guides list Anna's Hummingbird as being 10 cm long -- and I wonder whether that figure includes bill length). I have also encountered Bushtits alone. The tail in the photograph also looks shorter than in the photos of Wrentit I have seen, and there is no white mark above the eye which I see in photos of Wrentit (though I do not know if they sometimes lack it).

My two cents,
Jim

[Gentoo]

Anna's Hummingbird:3 1/2-4" (9-10 cm).
http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/d...?recnum=BD0120

Bushtit: 3 3/4-4" (10 cm).
http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/d...?recnum=BD0008

Wrentit:6-6 1/2" (15-17 cm)
http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/d...=&curPageNum=1

[J. Moore]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

Anna's Hummingbird:3 1/2-4" (9-10 cm).
http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/d...?recnum=BD0120

Bushtit: 3 3/4-4" (10 cm).
http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/d...?recnum=BD0008

Wrentit:6-6 1/2" (15-17 cm)
http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/d...=&curPageNum=1

All my hard copy guides give a greater length--4.5 inches--for Bushtit. (This includes Sibley's, National Geographic, and National Wildlife Federation). I guess we are going to have to capture a bunch and measure them ourselves to see who is right. ;-)

Best,
Jim

[J. Moore]

I should also add that whether or not my impression of the size of the Bushtit is accurate is not necessarily relevant here. Perhaps if I had more experience with the bird I would think of it as smaller than I do. But since I am in a similar position to the original poster (that is limited experience with the species), and I think of the Bushtit as being definitely larger than an Anna's Hummingbird, I think that undermines too much reliance on his size report here.

Jim

[njlarsen]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

Anna's Hummingbird:3 1/2-4" (9-10 cm).
http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/d...?recnum=BD0120

Bushtit: 3 3/4-4" (10 cm).
http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/d...?recnum=BD0008

Wrentit:6-6 1/2" (15-17 cm)
http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/d...=&curPageNum=1

I would like to remind everyone about this: "if you look at a bird you don't know, you are likely to misinterpret the size, even if you are a birdwatcher who normally gets sizes right for birds you know". It is my re-written, shortened version of a paragraph in Ken Kaufman's "Advanced Birding". For a person not familiar with either Wrentit or Bushtit, the difference between 10 and 20 cm is not significant.

Niels

[jthoppes]

Originally Posted by njlarsen

I would like to remind everyone about this: "if you look at a bird you don't know, you are likely to misinterpret the size, even if you are a birdwatcher who normally gets sizes right for birds you know".

What Niels just said. Size is not a reliable field mark for these two, even though the Wrentit does look larger in the field.

[Gentoo]

I believe the observer saw the bird in question with an Anna's Hummingbird. If this is true and he noticed it was much larger what would that mean?

[macshark]

Here are a few other shots of the same bird. All of them are somewhat out-of-focus due to branches interfering with the AF system, but contain views from a couple of different angles that may help with ID...

[djleahy]

Originally Posted by macshark

Here are a few other shots of the same bird. All of them are somewhat out-of-focus due to branches interfering with the AF system, but contain views from a couple of different angles that may help with ID...

I've been holding my tongue, but with the new photos, I'd have to vote for Wrentit. The first picture looked like a Wrentit to me (the eye more than anything else), but I was skeptical about Wrentits vs Bushtits around Shoreline Lake, which is heavily infested with Bushtits. The new photos look like all Wrentit to me. The eyes again.

I don't trust size so much on IDs, though.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by djleahy

I've been holding my tongue, but with the new photos, I'd have to vote for Wrentit. The first picture looked like a Wrentit to me (the eye more than anything else), but I was skeptical about Wrentits vs Bushtits around Shoreline Lake, which is heavily infested with Bushtits. The new photos look like all Wrentit to me. The eyes again.

I don't trust size so much on IDs, though.

On this same not, these additional photos put me even further into the Wrentit camp for the reasons you mentioned regarding the eyes. However also from looking at the branches it's on. Bushtits look tiny even on the thinest twigs which this bird is clearly not perched on.

[J. Moore]

Originally Posted by djleahy

I've been holding my tongue, but with the new photos, I'd have to vote for Wrentit. The first picture looked like a Wrentit to me (the eye more than anything else), but I was skeptical about Wrentits vs Bushtits around Shoreline Lake, which is heavily infested with Bushtits. The new photos look like all Wrentit to me. The eyes again.

I don't trust size so much on IDs, though.

Here is a link to a photo of a female coastal Bushtit:

http://www.bobsteelephoto.com/Images...h_R2M16330.jpg

Here is another photo that Chris Benesh provided in the thread Jan linked to:

http://www.thoma.com/thoma/hikes95/birds/bushtit.jpg

I could be wrong, but to me these look virtually identical to the bird in all three photographs posted above. Maybe you guys in the Wrentit camp could explain how you see these photos differing from the subject bird (or provide a Wrentit photo that looks as close or closer).

I did just check on eBird, and confirmed that while Bushtit is frequently reported around Shoreline Lake, there is only one report of Wrentit and that was from June.

Best,
Jim

[Gentoo]

Bushtits are smaller than this Wrentit:
http://www.chelmarshrg.org.uk/sitebu...g.w560h713.jpg

[jthoppes]

Originally Posted by J. Moore

while Bushtit is frequently reported around Shoreline Lake, there is only one report of Wrentit and that was from June.

In theory this shouldn't matter, since both species are resident. (And Wrentit will be less frequently reported wherever they both occur, just on secrecy grounds alone.) I still think it's a Bushtit- I can't reconcile the color distribution for a Wrentit.