[John M Robinson]

After comparing my SEs to other bins but not any SEs I did send them back to Nikon ten days ago. I just received them back via UPS today. To refresh your memory my particular pair was real fuzzy around the edge, but otherwise sharp in the middle. Different ideas were suggested but without looking through my pair and my inability to really describe the problem, nobody was really able to nail it down, so I sent them back to Nikon.

The service order only says they did a general check and clean along with adjusting the optical alighment. Whatever they did they fixed the problem. My bins now have a very large sweet spot and are sharp much closer to the edge, plus that fuzzyness is gone. These bins are SPECTACULAR! I can't imagine Swift 804s being better as I can't see any room for improvement. They are so sharp and three dimensional it boggles the mind. The colors seem unbiased, but more saturated if that is possible. The focus is slower than my Yosemites but very precise. Now I see why these Nikon porros have such a great reputation, I'm glad I was able to find a new pair before they discontinued them.

So consider me a Nikonite, that is a very special view.

[Renze de Vries]

John,

Very, very intriguing. Fuzziness gone, better edge sharpness, now that's what we all want, isn't it?
But how and why? I can't imagine it's in the cleaning. I also wonder if re-collimation can account for improvements of this magnitude (I have done some provisonal collimation myself but never saw fuzzy edges disappear or re-appear in the process). Maybe the Nikon guys dropped in completely new lenses?
Anyway, I feel that if you could find out more about the exact nature of the repair, there's a chance we all could benefit from this information.

regards,

Renze

[Sancho]

Congratulations, John! Glad you got your bins back in top-notch shape. I've never seen a pair of SE's, but Nikonitis began to creep in over the years and I've got other Nikon kit that amazes me. Best Wishes and Happy Birding.

[John M Robinson]

Hi Renze,
I posted this over on my other Nikon SE thread. I don't know what they did either, except it is improved enough, but not totally fixed so I now know what the original problem was and remains at a lesser degree. The problem is the eye piece (ocular?) end is lenses in a short tube, and the front end of the tube extends far enough into the binocular to cut off the total view to the edge by something less than 5% if I had to guess. If I shift my eye slightly off axis one direction or another, I can see at an angle past the end of the tube to a totally sharp, black edge of view. I don't know if somebody with a different eye relief from me would have their eye positioned so that they could see the full 100% view.

Now that I know why I'm seeing a fuzzy edge it doesn't bother me as much. If I really want to see a super sharp edge I can shift sideways to look at the edge, but a more practical solution is to be content with a 95% view that is striking. I think Nikon did adjust something as before I wasn't able to get past the fuzzyness no matter what I did. But I could be wrong, at least I know they are all colimated and clean. Now it's time to enjoy them.

Sancho, thanks. Between owning these great SEs and reading the threads on the Habicht and various Swift porros, I am intrigued with this older technology. I recommend you try a pair if you can find them.

John

[terraz]

Nice! Im sure they will have a lot of use now =D

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by John M Robinson

Hi Renze,
I posted this over on my other Nikon SE thread. I don't know what they did either, except it is improved enough, but not totally fixed so I now know what the original problem was and remains at a lesser degree. The problem is the eye piece (ocular?) end is lenses in a short tube, and the front end of the tube extends far enough into the binocular to cut off the total view to the edge by something less than 5% if I had to guess. If I shift my eye slightly off axis one direction or another, I can see at an angle past the end of the tube to a totally sharp, black edge of view. I don't know if somebody with a different eye relief from me would have their eye positioned so that they could see the full 100% view.

Now that I know why I'm seeing a fuzzy edge it doesn't bother me as much. If I really want to see a super sharp edge I can shift sideways to look at the edge, but a more practical solution is to be content with a 95% view that is striking. I think Nikon did adjust something as before I wasn't able to get past the fuzzyness no matter what I did. But I could be wrong, at least I know they are all colimated and clean. Now it's time to enjoy them.

Sancho, thanks. Between owning these great SEs and reading the threads on the Habicht and various Swift porros, I am intrigued with this older technology. I recommend you try a pair if you can find them.

John

John,

The vignetting (your inability to see the field stop) is not due to end of the objective tubes cutting off the view, though it appears that way when you look through the binoculars and tilt the EPs and see the field stop. The SE's EP design vignettes the view slightly at the edges, about 3-5%, from what others have reported. So that is "normal."

I've seen this on all three SE models. The shape of your face can make this worse. I have deep set eyes and I see less of the edges than others unless I really press my eyes into the eyecups deeply, but then I get the infamous blackouts.

However, the field curvature (edge fuzziness) on all my SEs was minimal compared to most binoculars I've owned. The best edges were on the 12x50 model, which was sharp almost to the edge (star tested).

The only binocular I've ever used that was sharp right to the field stop with no distortion was the Nikon 8-16x40 XL Zoom (premium zoom, not the cheapo Chinese version they have now), but you got that edge sharpness at the expense of a much narrower FOV, which is typical of zooms.

From my experience with using SEs (two 10x42s, three 12x50s, and one 8x32), and from reading other's posts and talking to a friend who has a 10x42 SE, the edge fuziness on an SE binocular should not be distracting or that noticeable, the way it might be with many mid-priced roof prism binoculars. I took a quick look through an Orion Savannah roof and found the fuzziness at the edges very distracting.

I only noticed the fall off in sharpness on the 10x42 SEs on the night sky when I moved a star to the edge. During the day, I really had to look for the fall off at the edge.

Aside from the XL Zooms, the only other binocular I've owned that was sharp to the edge was the 10x42 LX, but the stars or objects viewed during the day at the edges was misshapen due to the barrel distortion, which I found distracting since to my eyes, it was quite extreme (see my posts and Henry Link's post on the Nikon EDG thread for more details).

Field curvature can also be related to your eyes. Not sure how old you are, but as people get older, their eye lenses tend to harden, and they can't accommodate focus at the edges of optical lenses as well as younger people (not every older person experiences this, but many do).

To see if it's YOUR eyes rather than the lenses that are causing the problem, get someone to look through the binoculars, and ask them, percentage-wise, how far from the center the sharpness falls off, and then compare that percentage to where it falls off for your eyes.

For a more controlled test, take a container with print on it and set it at a distance and move the print to the edges and see how much of a word each of you can fit in the view and compare which letters are in focus and which are out with the last letter of the word right at the edge of the view.

If you are a few letter apart or even a word apart in what you both see, it's probably the difference in your focus accomodation.

I'm not sure what the return policy is of the store you bought them at, but if you are not happy, return them and ask for another sample (write the serial # down to make sure they don't send you the same unit again!).

The 10x42 SE is a fine binocular, the ergonomics are the best I've tried for my hands, my only beefs, and I think these have to do with my facial features, is that I found the AFOV too restricting and the eyecups uncomfortable. I liked the AFOV and eyecups on the 10x42 LX much better, even though, technically, the specs for FOV are the same for both bins.

The twist-up eyecups on the LX, the fact that the LX EPs have less tendency to cause blackouts, and the EPs don't vignette the view at the edges made it possible for me to see more FOV, to the point where the AFOV through the LX looked significantly more "open" to my eyes compared to the 10x42 SE.

I found the images through the LX to be just as sharp as the SE (in a resolution test, it was slightly sharper, but that could be sample variation). However, the LX had noticeably better contrast and color saturation. The only problem was the barrel distortion, but not everyone is sensitive to that or some see it but then quickly adapt to it.

The focuser is also faster on the LX, better for following birds, but the DOF isn't as good as the SE.

The SEs are well sealed for porros, though not waterproof like the LX roofs.

There are always trade-offs. You pick the combo that are most important to you, and which binocular fits your budget. For me, neither 10x42 was a good match.

I've seen LX's sell for as low as $425 on eBay, but more typically in the $600 range.

Brock

[John M Robinson]

Brock,
Thank you for the well written, informative reply. The edge fuzzyness issue is only with this pair of bins, my 8x42 Ultravid and 6x30 Yosemite are sharp right to the edge, but knowing what is causing the problem, and knowing that it is normal, psychologically makes it better. I do have deep set eyes so that is probably the root of the problem, I'm glad I don't have blackouts, I guess my deep eyes help there, I love the ergonomics of the SEs.

When I got hooked on optics early this year and started my quest which led me to this site and wonderful information, I tended to test my bins in an unrealistic fashion, being hypercritical about any small issue. Now that I have just used my bins for the past few months, I totally enjoy them and don't notice these problems that bugged me when I was moving my eye around looking for faults. It is a lot of fun to sit on my deck watching wildlife and scenery, near and far, comparing the Ultravid to the SE, back and forth. Believe it or not, it is snowing right now with 2' expected in the mountains overnight, but summer is just around the corner with lots of hiking in those mountains.

thanks again,

John